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+--- Thread: Late Roman belt (/showthread.php?tid=18854)
Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 09-19-2012
i wish I knew where that mosaic came from. I want to get a better photo of it, showing ore of t e other soldier and his clothing/ armor
Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 09-20-2012
Not to take it further off topic (maybe start a new thread on this mosaic?), but not knowing where the mosaics came from bothered me :| So i did some digging and determined that the mosaic is from
Villa Romana del Tellaro. Noto, Sicily
The Villa del Tellaro's origins date back to the (2nd half) of the 4th century AD, and it was destroyed by a fire about 100 years later (possibly from the Vandals in Africa?). Coins there indicate it originated around 360 AD, and due to the military theme of the mosaics it is believed to have been associated to a person from the military.
Here is a nice higher resolution image I found on wikipedia images of the specific area in question.
[attachment=5232]Villa_romana_del_Tellaro_001.jpg[/attachment]
What I find interesting is the clear ridge helmets being worn by both soldiers, and the wide style belts they have on. The chip carved belts are dated to that part of the 4th Century so that fits with the dating. Also the "device" the soldiers are working with is interesting, and appears to be some kind of surveying tool from a guess?
There is a hunting scene in a separate mosaic from the same villa, and some aspects that I found interesting was this section with the unusual device with flames coming out, as well as a nice look at what appears to be some kind of pouch or bag on the ground.
[attachment=5229]4thcenturymosaic.jpg[/attachment]
This image I like because of the nice representation of the sword and the flat disk sections of the hilt, known to exist from other later sword examples.
[attachment=5230]4thcenturymosaic-sword.jpg[/attachment]
This section I find interesting because it appears to depict a Centurion or commander. This attribution appears in the book, Roman Centurions 31 BC-Ad 500: The Classical and Late Empire
By Raffaele D'Amato, where they equate the Staff (vitis), and swastika with that rank. Apparently there is an Egyptian grave from that same period with swastika markings and a staff (vitis).
[attachment=5231]4thcenturymosaic-centurion.jpg[/attachment]
Its too bad that large sections of the mosaics were destroyed. Having the sections found available though is better than none at all!!
Late Roman belt - Virilis - 09-20-2012
Thanks a lot, Markus! I have never seen these interesting mosaics before 8-) !
Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 09-20-2012
Quote:maybe start a new thread on this mosaic?
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/17-roman-military-history-a-archaeology/287650-villa-telaro-late-roman-villa-in-sicily.html#288979
Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 09-21-2012
Very nice Marcus, thanks!
Late Roman belt - Agricola - 09-26-2012
Fantastic mosaics! I particularly like the scene of the man fighting against the Tiger. It gives you a good idea of what a late Roman trousers (or should that be hose?) looks like.
Late Roman belt - Virilis - 09-26-2012
There is a picture which shows an inside of a shield and it seems that there are two carrying straps, kind of like in a hoplon. Is it artistic license / anachronism or what?
Late Roman belt - Robert Vermaat - 10-02-2012
Difficult to say. So far, the sparse remains that are found do not show that, but who knows?
Late Roman belt - XorX - 11-21-2012
Hi
Does anybody have an idea how the very-very-very thin plates of these late roman belts ( I have measured an original set from ca. 400 - 430 a.D. being between 1 and 1.5 mm thick)could have been cast?
Even with modern methods this is sometimes a problem, even if it has a quite large surface ( for example one of the plates is about 11 x 3,5 cm having a richly engraved surface)
Late Roman belt - markusaurelius - 11-21-2012
Quote:Hi
Does anybody have an idea how the very-very-very thin plates of these late roman belts ( I have measured an original set from ca. 400 - 430 a.D. being between 1 and 1.5 mm thick)could have been cast?
Even with modern methods this is sometimes a problem, even if it has a quite large surface ( for example one of the plates is about 11 x 3,5 cm having a richly engraved surface)
The examples iv seen and measured are also about the same thick. I dont know enough about casting to know how they could be made. They clearly are not punched, and not actually carved so....
Late Roman belt - XorX - 11-21-2012
Quote:The examples iv seen and measured are also about the same thick. I dont know enough about casting to know how they could be made. They clearly are not punched, and not actually carved so....
That`s the point. The plates I know must have been chip-carved in wax and then cast. I don`believe they have been cast thicker and then ground off. There are no visible signs of grinding on the back despite some filemarks that might come from finishing the edges.
Late Roman belt - Medicus matt - 11-21-2012
Design chip carved into a wooden stamp. Stamp used to create impression in mould material of two part mould. Assemble mould. Pour in bronze. Job done.
Late Roman belt - Crispianus - 11-21-2012
Quote:Design chip carved into a wooden stamp. Stamp used to create impression in mould material of two part mould. Assemble mould. Pour in bronze. Job done.
I think lead/alloy may have been used for making masters for press moulding rather then wood, easy to cut and carve doesnt splinter and solid enough to use for press moulding in clay, I dont know of any roman examples off hand(hav'nt looked) but there are a number of medieval ones (see From "Viking to Crusader" page 108 cat no106 for an example of a patrice of lead alloy which is likely a master for a bronze patrice for forming thin sheet metal on, also metal working techniques in " The Work of Angels, masterpieces of celtic metalwork 6-9th century" for some good examples of lead alloy masters and moulds, crucibles etc and description of technique)In brief make your lead master as thick you want place in on a suitable flat surface (a flat wooden board) press the clay over it leave to dry for a time, remove from the board and repeat for the other half, channels, keys could be cut or pressed into the clay with the master, remove master when leather hard close and seal mould, leave to dry, the mould would need to be baked at some point to get rid of any remaining water ..
hope this helps
Late Roman belt - caiusbeerquitius - 11-22-2012
There was a discussion about this on RAT a while ago, or a link to an article... does anyone remember?
Late Roman belt - caiusbeerquitius - 11-22-2012
found it:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/17-roman-military-history-a-archaeology/308579-late-roman-chip-carved-buckle-question.html