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+--- Thread: Leathering my scabbard complete! (/showthread.php?tid=19208)
Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-23-2011
Hey everyone, I did post a while ago an earlier thread on me starting this, but I listed it under wrong category, so I'm starting over. Here is my gladius hispaniensis sword, which I want it to be around the Augustan era, but, I just hope not all legionaries carried Pompey type swords...anyway, whatever, here is! I did all the leathering in the past two days ....ugh...by hand. I got the needle stuck up my right index finger half an inch
I used a plastic cap to put over my finger to push the needle in, but after that, I stuck a dime in the bottom! hehe :lol:
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Crispvs - 07-23-2011
Very nice! I am looking forward to seeing how it develops from there. I like the way you have sewn up the bottom of the scabbard - if anything it is probably better than the method I used.
I hear you when you say you want it to be an Augustan period sword, but I am not sure that the Pompeii type had developed that early. A Mainz type might be more securely Augustan. However, if you were happy to have a time line perhaps fifty years later then your sword would be just right.
Keep up the good work.
Crispvs
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - kazeryu - 07-23-2011
Looks good Sam. Are you going to add a chape next?
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-23-2011
hey thanks! Um, are chapes all protective knobs to go on the tip of the scabbard, or just spatha ones where they look like lilly leafs? If u mean a rounded knob, yes, that as well as the brass gutters and some brass plate decor work. I have been advised to try a hobby shop for the brass, but I have also seen SOLID brass door coverings...but the gauge might be too thick :-( AND! I also saw solid brass hinges for a segmentata!!! Now, they are the type where the hinged part sticks out A LITTLE ( I think, hope not at all) but one design was almost like the accurate type with the three rounded parts. I'm sure different legionaries hinges may have had different designs, but I think I'll make m own to be safe. I think a lorica hamata would suit my time period pretty well, but I can't spend around $1,000 dollar and helll!!! NOT POUNDS...so like I've said before, I'm sure a legionary wearing segmentata had an older fashioned sword as long as it was in good shape..could have been his fathers! :!: :?:
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-23-2011
The chape is the decorative fitting,plus the furrel, on the tip of the scabbard, so
for a hispaniensis look at some of the reconstructions here on RAT, and you will see s few
options. Matt Amt's comes to mind!
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-24-2011
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&catid=20&id=89107#89126 this is all I found using " Gladius Hispaniensis "...is there a link possible if you would be so kind? If not, a key word? Thanks in Advance :-)
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-24-2011
http://www.replik-online.de/en/index.html
Heres one for starters, but there are more.
The one listed as a Spatha is suitable I would say!
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-24-2011
yes that does look good, but is there an example from the last half of the 1st century? Why I ask is that, I need my equipment to match a lorica segmentata time era as, I can't afford to buy, or have time to make a riveted lorica hamata...
My sword IS slightly waisted, and the tapering of the blade, smooth... that's where is fits a Hispaniensis...not a mainz? A mainz is....very waisted and is probably shorter, and my sword clearly isn't a Pompeii! So...I need the scabbard to look good and authentic for probably 50 A.D? I need help I think I'm going to make the Augustan type shield, but if I have no choice but to be republican...then I won't have body armor and will make a republican shield..I hate to bother you so much, but I'm having a tough time deciding. I do like the spatha example, but maybe it resembles pre-100 A.D too much... can there be an exception made for the blade of my sword? thanks..
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-24-2011
ahhh got ya! Well as crispus said, the pompay was gaining strength by that time, but any of the Mainz scabbards would do..I was thinking you were after an early Augustan period scabbard....
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Crispvs - 07-24-2011
Sam,
I would suggest that you might want to go for a transitional type of scabbard, which falls between the Mainz and the Pompeii, which would nicely allow for the shape of your sword blade. The type I mean is the type I described in my short article on Valkenburg/Porto Novo scabbard lockets.
The Porto-Novo example was of dimensions more suitable for a Mainz sword but included a 'palmette' of the type normally associated with Pompeii type scabbards. In contrast to that, I am reliably informed that the Long Windsor example was found with the remains of a Pompeii type sword so it appears, as I said, to be a scabbard type which bridged the transition from Mainz to Pompeii swords.
http://www.romanarmy.net/scabbard.htm
Also in your favour here is that such a scabbard might be easier for you to make as the brass parts are quite simple in comparison with the two field Pompeii type (the type I made), as well as being considerably easier than any of the three known types of Mainz scabbard.
The cross hangers from the Porto-Novo, Long Windsor and Rajkova-Mogila are all of a simple pattern featuring a simple embossed ridge rather than the multiple ribs seem on both Mainz and Pompeii type cross hangers.
The surviving parts of the Long Windsor chape also suggested a somewhat simpler construction than the other two types. It seemed to have been simply formed of two side gutters joined at the top by a horizontal piece of brass embossed with the same single ridge as the cross hangers on the Porto-Novo scabbard. Presumably there was a terminal knob but there was no evidence (as far as I know) to indicate a decorative plate ever having been part of the chape.
Here is a picture of it, drawn by Nick Griffiths:
![[Image: longwindsorchape.jpg]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Crispvs/longwindsorchape.jpg)
There is a simple chape in the Grosvenor Museum of roughly this form but which is more complete which includes a broad horizontal band on it back as well. The terminal knob was similar to that found on a Mainz type scabbard.
I made the terminal knob of my scabbard from part of a brass door handle like this one:
http://www.screwfix.com/p/georgian-door-handle-scroll-latch-brass-effect/68859
I am sure that with a hack saw and a decent file, along with a bit of dedication you could cut away the lever and turn the end of what is left into a terminal knob, which is what I did.
Crispvs
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-24-2011
right, that should settle it! Thank you Crispvs and Caesar, you're a legion's heart and scholars! Now it's making measurements and making it. My dad has said we can go to a hobby shop on Monday, ( our day off) to find some brass plates.... to cut the strips of gutters etc. I'm not experienced working metal, but let me buy the stuff first :-? At home depot, they were selling a solid brass bottom door guard which might be ok, what is the gauge you used? It has to be easy to work with so... as for the knob, yeah, I'll see what I can find, joining the knob to the gutters wasn't a problem? and other than rivets, any other form of attaching? Anyway, thanks, I'll check for reply tomorrow so no hurry! Have a great night, :-P
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-24-2011
Oh and big thanks for the bother Crispvs, all those diagrams are excellent!
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Titus Marius Secundus - 07-25-2011
Crispvs,
Now, looking further at the article I'm obviously going for one of those, something based from the evidence found. So, to be clear, the gutters stop at about the top fourth of the scabbard? and start again at the last bottom fourth? It would make sense to make a clam like impression at the ends of the gutters to look good. With the short plate, which will be at the top fourth, is the decorative plate tucked under the side gutters to be held in or is it cut out of the same piece as the gutters, the side gutters and the plate being one piece?
In the pictures it looks like one piece. I don't have much an idea about joining the cross bars. Is there a brass bit that goes on the top of the scabbard where the sword enters, if so is that also from the same brass part as the plate and or the gutters, but bent at a 90 degree angle to fold over the top? I'm sorry about all these questions. But the only one needing answered soon is the rough gauge that you used and size. Then I might have to ask how you punch out the holes :oops:
Just enough so I know what to look for when I go out looking for brass sheets tomorrow, many thanks to anyone who can give me an idea :-)
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - Crispvs - 07-25-2011
The Porto-Novo scabbard featured a metal plate which covered its entire face, over which the locket fitting was placed. From memory I think it had side guttering down the entire length of both sides and that this too passed under the locket fitting. However, the Long Windsor scabbard does not seem to have had side guttering and there seems little reason to think that the other surviving locket plates in this group came from scabbards with side gutters.
As you can probably see from the pictures in my article, most of the plates feature small holes near the bottoms of their 'legs'. These are almost certainly associated with the attachment of the cross hangers and show that the bottoms of the legs must have been covered by the cross hangers. This certainly seems to be the case with the Rajkova Mogila scabbard.
The Ermine Street Guard have reconstructed these plates with long legs which pass underneath both the upper and lower cross hangers but the consistency of form among the surviving pieces suggests that in reality they only extended as far as the upper cross hanger.
As to the top plate you asked about, this is one thing we are not sure of. Several locket plates in this group have been widened slightly at the mouth, which might support the idea of top plates having been fitted. However, if so, the other evidence for them is lacking and as identifiable top plates are virtually absent from the record (Miks' catalogue shows only a single top plate which might have come from a locket for a Pompeii sword and those Pompeii lockets which I am aware of all the details of show no evidence for such plates being fitted), we are left wondering why the locket plates were widened at the mouth. As you will have noticed from my 'How to' thread, I did not fit a top plate to my scabbard and I have not found this to be a problem.
Crispvs
Re: Leathering my scabbard complete! - kazeryu - 07-25-2011
If you decide to buy a brass kick plate for a door, make sure it really is solid brass. Sometimes they are just brass-plated.