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Home made shovel - M. Demetrius - 02-19-2012
I know I've seen some photos of Roman wooden shovels. Can't seem to find them right now...can anyone share dimensions? I'm guessing that the shaft is around 1 1/2" 38mm, and the length about 40" 1m. With that, from memory only, I think the width of the scoop might be about 6" 15cm. I also presume the foot end of the shovel is about as thick as the shaft, but tapers down to very thin at the point of contact for the metal bit. The first one will be flat at the digging end, but maybe later a spade-pointed one.
As you can clearly tell, I want to make a shovel. Seems like the D handle and T handle are likely. The first one will likely be T for simplicity while I work out the other end. In the event that a later attempt is a D handle, is the crosspiece reinforced with a dowel or metal rod running cross ways? If not, that seems a weak point--where the handle meets the yoke. Just thinking ahead.
I plan to start with a regular dimensional lumber board and cut most of it away. I don't yet have the patience and skill to split a plank from a log and go that route. Someday, maybe, but that takes tools I don't have just now.
Helps appreciated, especially close up photos and/or dimensional drawings.
Re: Home made shovel - M. Demetrius - 02-20-2012
Surely someone can help an auld mann out here?
Re: Home made shovel - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-20-2012
I've seen some photos, and Peronis reconstruction available from Armamentatia, but no actual dimensions, sorry Dave.
Re: Home made shovel - PhilusEstilius - 02-21-2012
David the word is not out it is oot, but thin aah divint nah mesel in aah canna help yi oot lad.
Re: Home made shovel - Crispvs - 02-21-2012
Dave,
All of the spades I am aware of (and my knowledge here might be somewhat out of date, as spades are not things I spend a lot of time searching for information on) exist only in their metal parts. In most cases this is simply the 'U' or horseshoe shaped iron pieces to fit over the 'cutting' edge, although, if I recall correctly there is one example in the British Museum of a spade with an all-iron blade and an iron shaft. This shaft (if memory serves me correctly) looks though as if it probably fitted into a longer, presumably wooden haft. As far as I know, no wooden parts survive from Roman spades, meaning that whatever form they might have taken is largely a matter of guesswork.
As I said however, my knowledge here may be out of date and someone else may know of more recent finds than me.
Crispvs
Re: Home made shovel - M. Demetrius - 02-21-2012
Paul, thanks. You are right. Somewhere I had a picture of a metal shovel from Israel, and it looks an awful lot like a flattened modern shovel. Evidently, this one was made from two pieces forge-welded together, judging by the way the socket looks. However, that one would be the exception. I think I'll try it with a flat tip, as I know I have seen a photo of one like that, and a straight line V is much simpler to make than a curved V. Photo if ever I succeed.
Brian, Ahm obliged t'ye, an I dee kin tha' if ye knew't, ye'd be tellin anon.
Re: Home made shovel - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012
The straight line V should be made into a U shape. At least on the ones I have seen.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=roman+shovel&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bvb&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1280&bih=861&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsb&tbnid=IQf3NQ7tqx1ywM:&imgrefurl=http://lostfort.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html&docid=v98CK_KnlVjbCM&imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_B4ou7O2v_Jk/RXG2Q5UspaI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Mtyb1bkLlEc/s1600/hede6.JPG&w=634&h=357&ei=h7tCT9r5DYPR0QXXxaSPDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=169&vpy=482&dur=5193&hovh=168&hovw=299&tx=204&ty=105&sig=102296060242754797182&page=9&tbnh=111&tbnw=197&start=208&ndsp=27&ved=0CJIIEK0DMOYB
However, look at this one! :eek:
Re: Home made shovel - Crispvs - 02-21-2012
That looks like a mattock to me, with its narrow end folded back over the broad end. The hole for the haft can be seen easily. I know that the caption calls it a shovel blade but I think that is a mistake. Presumably the writer of the piece saw the picture and without knowledge of Roman pioneering tools interpreted the folded over piece as a way of bringing the hole into the right position for the insertion of a shovel handle. However, the join would not really be strong enough in such an arrangement and I am sure that if this piece was unfolded it would be the normal shape for a Roman mattock.
Crispvs
Re: Home made shovel - Robert Vermaat - 02-21-2012
Hi David,
I came across these images, is this what you're looking for? I believe the remains are from West Yorkshire (I recall one from Richborough but can't find it), the reconstruction can of course be made in any size.
[attachment=3092]spade.gif[/attachment] [attachment=3093]spade.jpg[/attachment]
Re: Home made shovel - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012
Quote:That looks like a mattock to me, with its narrow end folded back over the broad end. The hole for the haft can be seen easily. I know that the caption calls it a shovel blade but I think that is a mistake. Presumably the writer of the piece saw the picture and without knowledge of Roman pioneering tools interpreted the folded over piece as a way of bringing the hole into the right position for the insertion of a shovel handle. However, the join would not really be strong enough in such an arrangement and I am sure that if this piece was unfolded it would be the normal shape for a Roman mattock.
Crispvs
I was wondering about the orientation of the hole, but couldn't quite make it out.
However, the adze dolabra are pretty nice..
Re: Home made shovel - PhilusEstilius - 02-21-2012
David.
Please excuse me for I was just feeling a bit frivolous last evening, by the way that was not Scottish it is my own dialect of Geordie which is even more difficult that Jockanese.
Re: Home made shovel - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-21-2012
Fit yeh ahn aboot min? Ye ken fine Jordies air jist jocks wi thir heeds kicked een!! :razz:
Re: Home made shovel - agrimensor - 02-21-2012
Guys, Cristian made a copy in iron resembling a modern one.
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=view&catid=52&id=304895
hope it helps.
Re: Home made shovel - M. Demetrius - 02-21-2012
I put a note on that thread. I can't tell how the bottom of the blade attaches to the handle. But yes, thanks!
The rounded bit appears to be two pieces of metal, welded around the outer edge. Is that how it was made, Robert? And thanks for that. The bricks give a good size reference. It's a bigger deal than some might think to make a curved V shape. The metal doesn't like to do that without many heatings.
First effort will almost certainly be a straight blade, like a shovel, not a spade. I know I've seen one of those, but I can't find the picture. Bad organization on my part, I'm sure.
Re: Home made shovel - PhilusEstilius - 02-21-2012
Byron.
The definition of a Scotsman is a man who wears a womans skirt blows up a pigs backside and tries to call it music.
Then again there are others who are simply Irishmen who could not swim back.