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Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Narukami - 04-22-2012
New research claims that Cleopatra dies from a "lethal cocktail" rather than by a snake bite.
http://news.discovery.com/history/cleopatra-poison-death.html
CLEOPATRA KILLED BY DRUG COCKTAIL?
Legends allege that the last queen of Egypt died from a snakebite. But a new study could rewrite history.
THE GIST
Cleopatra died from a lethal drug cocktail instead of a snakebite, according to a new study.
Death by snakebite is a painful and unpleasant experience. Symptoms include vomiting, diarrhea and more.
The last queen of Egypt more likely succumbed to a plant poison mixture.
Cleopatra, the last queen of Egypt, died from swallowing a lethal drug cocktail and not from a snake bite, a new study claims.
According to Christoph Schäfer, a German historian and professor at the University of Trier, the legendary beauty queen was unlikely to have committed suicide by letting an asp -- an Egyptian cobra -- sink into her flesh.
"There was no cobra in Cleopatra's death," Schäfer told Discovery News.
The author of a best-selling book in Germany, "Cleopatra," Schäfer searched historic writings for evidence to disprove the 2,000-year-old asp legend. His findings are to be featured on the German channel ZDF as part of a program on Cleopatra.
"The Roman historian Cassius Dio, writing about 200 years after Cleopatra's demise, stated that she died a quiet and pain-free death, which is not compatible with a cobra bite. Indeed, the snake's venom would have caused a painful and disfiguring death," Schäfer said.
According to German toxicologist Dietrich Mebs, a poison specialist taking part in the study, the symptoms occurring after an asp bite are very unpleasant, and include vomiting, diarrhea and respiratory failure.
"Death may occur within 45 minutes, but it may also be longer with painful edema at the bite site. At the end, the dead body does not look very nice with vomit, diarrhea, a swollen bite site," Mebs told Discovery News.
Ancient texts also record that Cleopatra's two handmaidens died with her -- something very unlikely if she had died of a snake bite, said Schäfer.
The Queen of the Nile committed suicide in August 30 B.C. at the age of 39, following the example of her lover, the Roman leader Marc Antony, who killed himself after losing the Battle of Actium.
At that time, temperatures in Egypt would have been so high that "it was almost impossible for a snake to stay still enough to bite," Schäfer said.
"The main problem with any snakebite are the unpredictable effects, because the venom of the snakes is highly variable. The amount they spent for the bite may be too low. Why taking a risk even to survive with such unpleasant symptoms?" Mebs said.
According to the researchers, who traveled to Alexandria where they consulted ancient medical texts, a plant poison mixture which is easily dosed and whose effects are very predictable could have worked much better.
"Ancient papyri show that the Egyptians knew about poisons, and one papyrus says Cleopatra actually tested them," Schaefer said.
Schaefer and Mebs believe that Cleopatra chose a drug cocktail made of opium, aconitum (also known as wolfsbane) and hemlock, a highly poisonous plant from the parsley family that is believed to have been used to poison Socrates.
The drug cocktail, Schäfer claims, was known at the time to cause a rather painless death within a few hours.
"Cleopatra reportedly carried out many toxicological experiments, an imitation of Mithradates VI. In her quest for the most peaceful and painless way to die, she would have observed the deaths of many condemned prisoners by many different poisons and combinations, including snakebite," Adrienne Mayor, author of the Mithridates biography "The Poison King," told Discovery News.
"In my opinion, Cleopatra would have taken a high dose of opium as a sedative and then succumb to a cobra bite within a half hour," Mayor said. "She would be sedated and calm, feeling no pain, as the cobra venom slows her respiration, and she breathes her last and dies."
According to Alain Touwaide, an international authority on medicinal plants of antiquity at the Smithsonian Institution and the Institute for the Preservation of Medical Traditions in Washington , D.C., the drug cocktail would have technically worked well.
"A mixture of opium, aconitum and hemlock would have been a very intelligent combination. Opium and hemlock would have contributed to a painless death, easing the action of aconite, believed in antiquity to have deadly effects on the gastro-intestinal system. However, it wasn't common at all to mix vegetable poisons at Cleopatra's time," Touwaide told Discovery News.
"Cleopatra is a constant source of legends and theories, and is often credited with the writing of treatises on poisons, cosmetics and medicines," Touwaide said. "I believe finding her body and applying forensic methods of analysis would be the only way to solve the mystery of her death."
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 04-22-2012
"According to Christoph Schäfer, a German historian and professor at the University of Trier, the legendary beauty queen was unlikely to have committed suicide by letting an asp -- an Egyptian cobra -- sink into her flesh.
"There was no cobra in Cleopatra's death," Schäfer told Discovery News."
An Asp is an ADDER, not a COBRA.......
M.VIB.M.
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - 66kbm - 04-22-2012
Too much JD would have been easier
Kevin
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Vindex - 04-22-2012
I once had too much snakebite at a student party eons ago and it was fairly lethal - certainly the same symptoms as described above - but not fatal (clearly). :twisted:
I wouldn't call it a cocktail exactly but at the stretch of the imagination you could, if pushed. (It's half and half lager and cider if anyone wants to try it...but drink responsibly, of course!)
So if Cleopatra had access to those two vital ingredients she could still have died of snakebite...AND a cocktail :mrgreen:
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Nathan Ross - 04-22-2012
Quote:But a new study could rewrite history.Not again! :roll:
Quote:An Asp is an ADDER, not a COBRA.......Are you sure? Most discussions of Cleopatra's death seem to agree on the Egyptian cobra, a symbol of royalty, as the cause. J Gwyn Griffiths ('The Death of Cleopatra VII', The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, Vol. 51, 1965) mentions that the horned viper (a species of adder) had been suggested, but rejects it. More modern studies might have put forward different views - but the cobra is surely the strongest possibility for the classical 'asp'.
However, this article still has a strong flavour of hokum, which is a very potent poison...
Quote:the researchers... traveled to Alexandria where they consulted ancient medical texts... one papyrus says Cleopatra actually tested them," Schaefer said.The idea of the 'researchers' rifling through dusty old scrolls in Alexandria to find this info is absurd - it's actually mentioned in Plutarch, which is freely available online!
The serpent-death story occurs not only in Cassius Dio, but also in Plutarch and the more contemporary Horace, Propertius and Virgil (besides Galen and Josephus, amongst others). It is worth being skeptical even so - snakes were symbolic of royalty (in Egypt) and death (in Rome), so there's a chance it was a poetic metaphor or symbol misconstrued as fact. I have read before that some other mode of death might have been employed, so the poison suggestion isn't too radical. It just doesn't appear to rest on anything more than hypothesis.
Besides, the article doesn't stress that two of their quoted sources disagree with the hypothesis anyway - Mayor goes with snakebite after opium sedative, and Touwaide says that mixing organic poisons was 'uncommon'.
Incidentally, the Griffiths article mentioned above also points out that the poetic sources for Cleopatra's death arm her with two asps, not one - Griffiths wonders whether, even considering the 'symbolic urge', the second snake might have been backup, 'to bring death more swiftly and effectively', as the cobra supposedly expends all its venom in the first bite. However, in his postscript to the article he provides the charming anecdote of G.A. Wainwright's visit to the zoological gardens at Gizeh, where he persuaded a snake-catcher to provoke his cobras to eject poison - it took three bites to empty the snake's poison sacs. Griffiths wonders whether the second snake might have been for the benefit of the maidservants...
hock:
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Nathan Ross - 04-22-2012
Quote:It's half and half lager and cider if anyone wants to try it...That same toxic substance was known as diesel when I was a youth. It was very popular with, erm, 'beginning drinkers'...
But the suggestion that Cleopatra died of alcohol poisoning after a student party really would rewrite history! :razz:
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Vindex - 04-22-2012
Quote: But the suggestion that Cleopatra died of alcohol poisoning after a student party really would rewrite history! :razz:
:lol:
Couldn't be any worse than some theories :roll:
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Narukami - 04-22-2012
At times like this, I turn to a trusted scholar of ancient Rome:
"The precise method of suicide tends to be discussed at great, even excessive length, to the extent that it sometimes overbalances far more important episodes in her life. Our ancient sources were clearly unsure over precisely what happened and it is therefore highly improbable that we can solve every detail of the mystery. If the bite of a snake was the method used, then people have speculated about the precise species of asp or viper, and then wondered how many animals would be required to kill both Cleopatra and her two maids. The most likely candidate is the Egyptian cobra, which can grow to 6 feet and so would have been harder to conceal, especially if two or three were needed. Plutarch tells a story of a snake being smuggled into the royal chamber, concealed in a basket of figs, whereas in Dio's version it was a basket of flowers. Both report other versions and other sources of poison - for instance, a hallow pin that Cleopatra wore in her hair and which contained a fatal poison. The substance may have been snake venom collected at an earlier time. Strabo talks of a poison ointment.
One of the sources reported faint scratches or punctures to her arm and this was the only visible mark on her. Whether made by the fangs of a snake or by the point of a pin is unknown. ... By the time Octavian sent men to the royal chamber, Iras was already dead, lying at the feet of the queen. The dying Charmion was struggling to make a last minute correction to Cleopatra's royal diadem.
Plutarch says that one of the men angrily called to her that this was a fine thing. 'Truly a fine deed, becoming a queen descended from so many kings,' Charmion replied, and then collapsed and died. Whether or not the story is true, it was a fittingly theatrical final scene for Cleopatra's story."
-- Antony And Cleopatra by Adrian Goldsworthy, c2010, pages 384--85.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Nathan Ross - 04-22-2012
Quote:Both report other versions and other sources of poisonThat's a good point - our much-abused 'ancient sources' are often a lot less credulous that certain modern commentators give them credit for!
Practically speaking, a poison made from snake venom would seem quite possible, and anything self-injected would resemble the effects of a snakebite.
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Draconis - 04-22-2012
Awhile back there was a documentary looking at the death of Cleopatra from a fresh perspective. They brought in a detective I believe, and looked at it as if it were a possible homicide. They pointed out that Cleopatra was a survivor personality and unlikely to commit suicide. She was resourceful and experienced in overcoming obstacles and was not one to just give up. They did suggest that Octavian, would have had both opportunity and motive to get her out of the way rather than risk the possibility of yet another attempt on her part of wresting power from him. Cleopatra was nothing if not wily and her seduction and manipulation of both J. Caesar and Mark Antony, would have raised serious concern that she might well, repeat this on some general. Octavian after Actium and the death of Antony, was master of the Toman world, he was no fool, Cleopatra would have represented a threat as long as she lived. It would have behooved him to remove tis threat. Just as he had to remove Caesarion, her son by Julus Caesar, a natural born son and not adopted as Octavian was, he could have claimed a right to succesion. Octavian had to remove both mother and son and end any possibility of further threats to his grip on Rome. The doco believed that it was quite possible if not probable that she did not commit suicide but rather was murdered, then the death called a suicide. I don't know,but its another possibility. Cleopatra's research on poison could also been not for the purpose of the best way to die but rather to ensure she remain alive, the poison being used to remove enemies. As has often been said, poison is a woman's weapon. Cartainly, someone like Cleopatra, skilled in manipulation and surviving the intrigues of the Egyptian court, her brother, etc. She would have been skilled in the art of assasination by poison. Nobody has considered the possibility of her being murdered so I thought I'd throw that out there.
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Ghostmojo - 04-22-2012
I think Cleopatra's line survived down the centuries. She certainly reminds me of my ex-wife, who could well be her great, great, great ... several hundred times ... great granddaughter :wink:
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Narukami - 04-23-2012
"Some scholars have speculated that, in spite of his attempts to keep the queen alive, it was actually more convenient for Octavian to let her die or even have her killed. Therefore the guard placed over her was loose enough to give Cleopatra every chance to commit suicide. The example of Arsinoe, who won the Roman crowd's pity when she was led in Caesar's triumph, is cited. It is possible that a similar reaction was feared, but given that Cleopatra was much older and had been portrayed so strongly as Rome's enemy, then it was far from certain. As a famous captive she would grace Octavian's triumph and for the rest of her life be a visible sign of his clemency. On balance, it is more likely that he wanted to keep her alive. It would surely have been possible for her to be killed 'accidentally' in the confusion of Antony's defeat had he wanted this -- at least once her treasure was secured."
-- Antony & Cleopatra by Adrian Goldsworthy, c2012, p384.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - M. Demetrius - 04-23-2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_cobra
Clearly the cobra exists today in Africa. Whether it existed in the same range now as it did in ancient Egypt, I can't say.
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - Nathan Ross - 04-23-2012
Quote:Whether it existed in the same range now as it did in ancient Egypt, I can't say.Surely...
[img size=249x430]http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/185927/large/E9050408-Egyptian_goddess_Wadjet-SPL.jpg[/img]
Goddess Wadjet. From the tomb of Queen Nefertari, c.1300BC
But, as mentioned above, an actual cobra would probably be too big to smuggle in a basket of figs! Rereading the Plutarch account, he's dubious about the story anyway and prefers the idea of a venom-covered pin or comb of some kind.
Re: Cleopatra Killed by Lethal Cocktail Not Snake - M. Demetrius - 04-23-2012
Yes, cobras in ancient Egypt. I believe it.
What I meant was, the climates of that area have changed in the last two thousand years, so the existence or non-existence of cobras, adders, or other species is hard to know for certain, and we have only the historical writings to guide us.
And it's certainly possible that a snake could have been imported from elsewhere by a queen, isn't it? And having venomous snakes on hand, so to speak, for amusement or evil business is not unbelievable, really.