+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back (/showthread.php?tid=20760)
Pages:
1
2
2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Alanus - 05-08-2012
After an absence of nearly two millennia, the Roxolani helmet showed up for the Legio III get-together in Kennebunk, Maine, USA. During the parade, a crowd applauded the archers-- an influence of the recent film, The Hunger Games. :wink:
[attachment=3972]legioIII467.JPG[/attachment]
Quintius, Alanus, and Satilius, hobknobbing after the parade.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Vindex - 05-08-2012
Impressive impression, Alan! The folks across the Pond are certainly lucky to have you :wink:
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Alanus - 05-08-2012
Thanks, Moi
At this stage, I'm fairly authentic from the waist up. The splint greaves have been an issue here on RAT, but if the Altai Culture had them, if the western Scythians did, and also the Huns, I would think the Sarmatian Alans had them also. The pointy upturned toes show up on depictions of Hittites, Parthians, and even Celts, so I figure they are appropriate. The bow is no less authentic than the helmet. I'm getting there... slowly but surely. :wink:
PS: My novel Forging the Blade will be out this coming week. It's mid 4th century, with a young Fritigern as the lead male character as he joins the Roman auxilliary horse.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - daryush - 05-08-2012
Quote:The pointy upturned toes show up on depictions of ... Parthians
Mind pointing me the source? I'd be curious to check them out. All the footwear I've seen on Arsaco-Sassanian artwork are either simple mocs or moc-boots with a triangle at the top. Similar to the finds from Chehr-Abad.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Virilis - 05-09-2012
Great to see rare helmets like this
!!!
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Crispvs - 05-09-2012
I agree! Very nice. Very nice impression altogether in fact! Good to hear the audience appreciated the effort.
There is just one thing spoiling the picture. You must have a gentle chat with the chap on your left (to the right in the picture) and get him to remove that abomination from his belt, along with the two inaccurate straps attached to it. The same possibly applies to your other companion as well I am afraid. :wink:
Crispvs
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Alanus - 05-09-2012
Quote:Alanus post=312404 Wrote:The pointy upturned toes show up on depictions of ... Parthians
Mind pointing me the source? I'd be curious to check them out. All the footwear I've seen on Arsaco-Sassanian artwork are either simple mocs or moc-boots with a triangle at the top. Similar to the finds from Chehr-Abad.
Hello, daryush
Offhand, I don't have the illustration, but it was earlier than Sassanian. The Celtic pic was in either Megaw & Megaw or in Cunliff. At the time of my impression, which I consider Eastern influenced, the Chinese were wearing similar boots or shoes. Of course, the Mongolians are still making them... for BIG bucks. :roll:
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Robert Vermaat - 05-10-2012
Quote:PS: My novel Forging the Blade will be out this coming week. It's mid 4th century, with a young Fritigern as the lead male character as he joins the Roman auxilliary horse.Gearing up for his crushing defeat of us Romans later no doubt.
Auxiliary horse? During the mid-4th c.? Or are you referring to the Auxilia Palatina?
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Alanus - 05-11-2012
The novel takes place in the 350s. Hard to find anything concrete, even in Dixon & Southern. Basically, I went with the premise that the cavalry was still an auxilliary equites legionis and attached to the Tenth Gemina at Vindobona. Maybe this changed after Adrianople, when we see independent alas recorded in the Dignitatum.
I postited Junius Soranus as Vindobona's commander; and one of the ala commanders is Theodosius the First. Writing for a general reader, I used modern expressions, and Fritigern ends up as a captain, gets offered a promotion, but leaves and returns to Gothia to oppose Athanaric's persecution of the Christians. This would link to a sequel, where Fritigern and Soranus (now top rank in Scythia Minor and on his last tour) fight Athanaric again and retrieve the bones of Saint Saba and the martyrs around 370. (straight out of Socrates Scolasticus, Zosimus, and Zosiman.)
The important thing I'd like to get across is that Fritigern was a Christian years before modern historians claim his conversion shortly after he led the Tyrfingi across the Danube. I also think he was sainted, because the Gothic Church had a feast-day in his honor (along with the martyrs). Soranus, too, was quite devout for a military man, a Cappadocian and well acquainted with church leaders. There were very few honest men of honor during this period of history, and Fritigern was among them. We might add Alaric to that small few, a man who fed a quarter million people while searching for a homeland.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Robert Vermaat - 05-11-2012
Hi Alan,
Quote: The novel takes place in the 350s. Hard to find anything concrete, even in Dixon & Southern. Basically, I went with the premise that the cavalry was still an auxilliary equites legionis and attached to the Tenth Gemina at Vindobona. Maybe this changed after Adrianople, when we see independent alas recorded in the Dignitatum.that would have worked during the 250s, but the legionary cavalry, as far as we know, seems to have become independent during the late 3rd-early 4th centuries. They formed new cavalry units or remained independent alae, depending whether they became part of the new mobile structures (comitatenses) or remained part of the border armies (limitanei). But by the 350s, this change had already been completed, and the old auxiliary units had disappeared. The only ‘auxilia’ are the new palatine units, aka the Emperor’s personal troops.
Quote:I postited Junius Soranus as Vindobona's commander; and one of the ala commanders is Theodosius the First.Ala is good, but not attached to any legion. I don’t know if we know the military career of the younger Theodosius (the later Emperor), but would he not be on the staff with his father, who is at that time still a successful general?
Quote: The important thing I'd like to get across is that Fritigern was a Christian years before modern historians claim his conversion shortly after he led the Tyrfingi across the Danube.Why would you want to do that?
Quote: We might add Alaric to that small few, a man who fed a quarter million people while searching for a homeland.I would not define Alaric as a ‘man of honour’ in that sense. He was a man who sought ‘imperium’, and by attaching people to him he meant to gain that. I think it’s a 19th-c. folktale that the Goths were ‘looking for a homeland’. That tale belongs to the romantic view of the ‘Völkerwanderungen’, adorned with pictures of a people in endless streams of carts, laden with wives and children and guarded to their tough, blond and honest men-folk. These days we know that a large number of peoples entered the Roman Empire, were settled where the Romans pleased and then were lost within the Roman provincial population – as the Goths would have had the Empire not been in crisis. :wink:
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Albertomv - 05-11-2012
A very impressive helmet! Great Job!
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Alanus - 05-11-2012
Thanks, Alberto.
To Robert,
Hopefully, the ala's structure is sufficiently vague enough that it gives the impression of being independent. I never have footsoldiers in the story, only the cavalry.
The Theodosius in the novel is the elder, and he disappears to Trier obviously after a promotion.
Why would I want to do that? I believe Fritigern was long-involved in an idealogical dispute with Athanaric, the latter conducting the first purge of Christians, likely under the auspices of his father Aoric. From Scholasticus and through to Zosimus, we find Fritigern leading Romans against the "Scythians" at the same time Soranus retrieves bones of the martyrs. Hardly a coincidence, and it explains how a barbarian chieftain could lead Roman forces against another Gothic faction. This was at least five years before the Tyrfingi crossed the Danube, yet modern historians place Fritigern's religious conversion after the crossing. They also miss the point that he had previous Roman military experience. To me there is a huge difference, and it paints a clearer picture of the man's motives, tactics, and education. A seldom noted fact: the original sources imply that at one point during the Gothic war Fritigern had the chance to capture Theodosius the Younger yet backed off. I believe the man had moral strength, and frankly I don't see the same strength in Theodosius... nor was he all that great a general. The Gothic war simply "ran out of gas," if you get my drift. :wink: In the end, Fritigern ceded yet won; the Goths were settled in Mosia.
Another historical misconception: When Constantinus allowed Bishop Ulfilas to lead his Arian Goths into the empire, this set a precedent. The later Tyrfingi crossing under the blessing of Valens wasn't unique or radical.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - A_Volpe - 05-12-2012
Photos can be misleading.
Quote:There is just one thing spoiling the picture. You must have a gentle chat with the chap on your left (to the right in the picture) and get him to remove that abomination from his belt, along with the two inaccurate straps attached to it. The same possibly applies to your other companion as well I am afraid.
Are you referring to their Balteus (baltii?) Or the pugio + strap? We try to replace and improve our kits as we go.
Besides, we were going to get to that strap and replace it with a leather string. We got distracted with getting everyone all geared up and ready, forgot about it.
I don't believe I heard anyone tell us "Hey, that strap is wrong!" Certainly when the Scutum hides that left side really well.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Robert Vermaat - 05-14-2012
Quote: Hopefully, the ala's structure is sufficiently vague enough that it gives the impression of being independent. I never have footsoldiers in the story, only the cavalry.It's also a matter of nomenclature. If you go for an (old army) alae, take care that your officers' ranks are also of the old structure. No dux, ordinarius, ducenarius etc.
Quote:The Theodosius in the novel is the elder, and he disappears to Trier obviously after a promotion.Would he ever. Emperor's pet. :wink:
Quote: They also miss the point that he had previous Roman military experience. To me there is a huge difference, and it paints a clearer picture of the man's motives, tactics, and education.A bit like Arminius, then.
Quote:A seldom noted fact: the original sources imply that at one point during the Gothic war Fritigern had the chance to capture Theodosius the Younger yet backed off.Although we can but guess as to what his motives were, it sounds plausible enough. Earlier on, the Goths had a very strong loyalty towards the dynasty of Constantine. Such loyalties did occur, so why not towards Theodosius’ house?
Quote: I believe the man had moral strength, and frankly I don't see the same strength in Theodosius... nor was he all that great a general.If we’re talking about the Younger Theodosius, I fully agree. He simply got lucky that Gratian was killed, and it was partly because of his weak knees against Ambrosius that he was ‘awarded’ the epithet ‘The Great’.
Quote:Another historical misconception: When Constantinus allowed Bishop Ulfilas to lead his Arian Goths into the empire, this set a precedent. The later Tyrfingi crossing under the blessing of Valens wasn't unique or radical.Is that indeed a conception? The Romans had allowed barbarians to settle in the Empire for centuries past. I think the uniqueness of the Gothic crossing were the numbers of the settlement.
Re: 2,000 Years Later-- Roxolani Helmet Comes Back - Nathan Ross - 05-14-2012
Quote:Writing for a general reader, I used modern expressions, and Fritigern ends up as a captain, gets offered a promotion, but leaves and returns to Gothia to oppose Athanaric's persecution of the Christians.Just a quick off-topic quibble, perhaps
- do you mean you're using modern expressions like 'captain'? Surely not a good idea! Most readers interested in ancient history will be ok with a term like Prefect (or even praefectus equitum), while modern equivalents are often misleading and tend to clang a bit (see the complete works of Stephen Dando-Collins, for example). Praepositus is always a tricky one to translate into english, admittedly - but 'commander' covers it quite nicely I think. I'm actually not too keen on Dux and Comes being translated as Duke and Count, which have connotations of hereditary aristocracy lacking in the Roman terms. 'Commander' (again!) and 'Companion' might work better, at the risk of being a bit obscure... This is something I'd wondered about myself recently...