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An abundance of Roman novels! - Nathan Ross - 05-21-2012
There seem to be an amazing number of novels being published these days about ancient Rome and the Roman army, most of them parts of ongoing series - just this year, there are or will be Anthony Riches' fourth novel The Leopard Sword, Robert Fabbri's second, Rome's Executioner, MC Scott's third, Rome: The Eagle of the Twelfth, Harry Sidebottom's fifth, Warrior of Rome: The Wolves of the North, Douglas Jackson's third, Avenger of Rome, Nick Brown's second, Agent of Rome: The Imperial Banner, Kate Quinn's third, Empress of Rome, Lindsey Davis' Master and God and Ben Kane's Spartacus 2: Rebellion. Last year there was also John Stack's Master of Rome - Masters of the Sea, Ben Kane's Hannibal: Enemy of Rome , RS Downies' Ruso and the River of Darkness and Simon Scarrow's eleventh book, Praetorian, amongst others.
I realise that all this is part of a wider trend for stories of historical adventure generally, whether about Vikings or Napoleonic naval commanders - but is there something particular about ancient Rome and the Roman army that strikes a chord with readers today? I remember Simon Scarrow once claiming that when he wrote his first book in 2000 his publisher wanted him to change it into a detective story, as otherwise nobody would be interested in a story about Roman legionaries. Very different situation now! Can anyone suggest why that might be?
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - mcbishop - 05-21-2012
Quote:I remember Simon Scarrow once claiming that when he wrote his first book in 2000 his publisher wanted him to change it into a detective story, as otherwise nobody would be interested in a story about Roman legionaries. Very different situation now! Can anyone suggest why that might be?Faddishness amongst publishers, pure and simple. The demand has always been there, they just didn't recognise it. All commercial publishers are innately conservative: they want The Next Best Thing but are only willing to take a chance on The Last Best Thing Mk2. Remember Watership Down? Surely nobody would read a novel about bunny rabbits. Well, actually, they did...
Mike Bishop
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Holtingar - 05-21-2012
I agree there are LOTS out there these days. It's hard to tell what's good and what's not. What with sites like Amazon, and now epubs, self-publishing seems to have exploded, so its difficult to tell what you're getting into with some of these books.
I'm not sure if this is the right place to talk about this, but I could use some encouragement.
I'm writing (and illustrating) a book about the Gothic revolt of 376. I started working on it Jan. 1 2010, and I hope to wrap it up within the next year. The story is handled in a very "grey" manner. You get to know the Barbarians every bit as well as the Romans, and are left making your own decisions about who was "right". I've been studying ancient history as a hobby for most of my life, and I really want to create something shows that level of dedication to the subject. In other words, I'm hoping that my story will be a great adventure, but also a little deeper than typical historical fiction. Obviously, I want to write an exciting novel about one of the Empire's worst disasters, but from the perspective of the people-on both sides-who had to live with the consequences. I want to create a very authentic world and cast of characters, but I also want readers to come away from the book thinking about their own cultural attitudes and values (and not in the tired old "can't we all just get along" kind of way). Because in essence, this was a time when both the Goths' and Romans' entrenched sets of values were challenged in a serious way - with heavy consequences for both sides. And in truth, there was no clear way of reconciling the two. Looking at the world today, I think readers will find relevance in the events surrounding the battle of Hadrianople if the story focuses on right things. I hope to write a novel with some staying power, not just "Warnography".
I'm a graphic designer and illustrator by trade, so in addition to writing a beautiful story, I want to produce a beautiful book, with accurate illustrations, good type, and, of course, a cover that you would want to frame. I also intend to have a website with accompanying materials on my research, with lots of original artwork and some related short stories.
So anyway, back on topic, With all of the stuff out there now, would I have trouble publishing something like this? Is the market saturated? Would anyone on the forum want to read something like this? I've had a look around the web and aside from one book - a cheesy romance novel - I haven't seen Hadrianople treated in fiction at all. My one biggest worry is that someone will publish a story dealing with the same events while I'm polishing up my final draft.
I would very much appreciate any comments or feedback. I'd like to say more about the plot and characters, but I don't know if that's wise at this stage.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Robert Vermaat - 05-21-2012
Quote:There seem to be an amazing number of novels being published these days about ancient Rome and the Roman army, most of them parts of ongoing seriesFor those who read German, there's a series about a soldier during the late 3rd century:
Michael Kuhn: Schicksal an Mosel und Rhein
Soldat Roms (2008)
Tribun Roms (2009)
Maximus Alamannicus (2010)
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Medusa Gladiatrix - 05-21-2012
Quote:So anyway, back on topic, With all of the stuff out there now, would I have trouble publishing something like this? Is the market saturated?
I like reading historical novels set in Ancient Rome, but there are good ones as well as bad ones around. The first Roman novels were those of Colleen McCullough. Then I came across were those of Steven Saylor's Roma Sub Rosa series (detective story of course
mile: ) and also those by John Maddox Roberts (another detective series) which I both love. The Eagle series by Simon Scarrow is also among my favorites. I look forward to reading his gladiator series hoping to come across some authentic gladiators though that's rather hard with Republican gladiators. Much easier with 1st century gladiators such as James Duffy had described in his two books. Due to his publisher he stopped this series "Gladiators of the Empire" 
Also I liked Donna Gillespie's "The Lightbearer" but the second volume wasn't as good as the first one.
I definitely don't like the books by Lindsay Davies and the book by Kate Quinn "The Empress of Rome". I bought the latter when I was in the USA last year in October browsing through a book store and it apealed to me that it said on the back cover that there are some gladiators in it. But I didn't even finish reading it.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Nathan Ross - 05-22-2012
Quote:All commercial publishers are innately conservative: they want The Next Best Thing but are only willing to take a chance on The Last Best Thing Mk2.That's true. They're also very competitive - their main enthusiasm seems to be outbidding their rivals on some prospective hot new property. Since this can only be determined by the similarity to previous hot properties, we get faddishness and repetition. Publishers genuinely willing to take a chance on something new will seldom pay much for it...
Quote:For those who read German, there's a series about a soldier during the late 3rd centuryMid-fourth, isn't it, from what I can make out of the German blurb? Are they any good, do you know?
Quote:It's hard to tell what's good and what's not.I think you can usually tell by looking at the first couple of pages - or even the first couple of paragraphs!
An Adrianople novel does sound interesting, and I can't think of anything that similar off the top of my head. But beyond the setting or the factual research, the quality is the most important thing - can the writer tell a gripping story, create believable characters, write vivid and interesting prose? Probably the most important thing is not to be put off by setbacks - the majority of published novelists have at least one old manuscript that didn't make it into print, and some (even the big ones) have a dozen or more.
Actually, one of the problems with the rise of electronic self-publishing might be that it encourages new writers to stake everything on their first book. Rather than taking the rejections in the bitter old way and moving on to something new and maybe better, they put out work which is maybe not the best they could do, often badly edited and full of typos and factual errors, and then get discouraged when it fails to thrive in a crowded market. Writing is difficult, there's a lot of craft involved, and it takes time. Instant self-publishing might seem an easy route onto the page, but it doesn't encourage quality.
The old-style print publishers might be a maddening bunch, but they (usually) have skilled readers and editors, not to mention marketing departments and distributors. A successful self-published novel might shift a few hundred copies at best, while even a modest first print run for a published novel runs into the thousands.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Alanus - 05-22-2012
Quote:I agree there are LOTS out there these days. It's hard to tell what's good and what's not.... I've been studying ancient history as a hobby for most of my life, and I really want to create something shows that level of dedication to the subject.... I haven't seen Hadrianople treated in fiction at all. My one biggest worry is that someone will publish a story dealing with the same events while I'm polishing up my final....
I would very much appreciate any comments or feedback. I'd like to say more about the plot and characters, but I don't know if that's wise at this stage.
Yes, there are a lot out there, but on Amazon you can preview the novel and discover if the writing is good or bad. Indie books don't necessarily mean the writing is poor, and I think The Demon's Door Bolt is a perfect example.
Like you, I've been working on a novel with Fritigern as one of the main characters, but I'm hitting from a different angle-- a pre-Arthurian one. I do feel the man got shortchanged in the histories.
This will be my fourth novel; two were "practice," the third now published. Planning a saga, Adrianople won't arrive until the 3rd in the series, then one that brings Frit's son Thiudebalth into Britain, and a final one about his son Theodoric. Don't think the angle is remotely like yours. A lot of publishing room out there. :grin:
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Holtingar - 05-22-2012
Quote:An Adrianople novel does sound interesting, and I can't think of anything that similar off the top of my head. But beyond the setting or the factual research, the quality is the most important thing - can the writer tell a gripping story, create believable characters, write vivid and interesting prose?
Thanks for the input! I completely agree with your point here. Characterization has actually been the bulk of the labor. My main goal is to write a story about the *people* who lived through the disaster. I'd also compliment your observation by adding something that I think was implicit in what you wrote: Pace. A key facet of any gripping story and something very tricky for an author of historical fiction to nail down. Striking that balance between a good atmosphere and good pace really depends on how the author handles setting and description, which I believe should be as efficient as it is effective. Readers want the author's words to transport them back in time, but not make it stand still once they're there.
Work like this really takes a lot of time - especially when you already have a full time job. Like I mentioned in my last post, I started working on this at the start of 2010. While I feel that my plot and characters are very unique, the events covered in the story are well known and thus fair game for any other author to take on. I'm not sure what it would mean for my work if another novel about the battle of Hadrianople were released before I can get mine published. That's been a gnawing concern since the start.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Alanus - 05-22-2012
Quote:While I feel that my plot and characters are very unique, the events covered in the story are well known and thus fair game for any other author to take on. I'm not sure what it would mean for my work if another novel about the battle of Hadrianople were released before I can get mine published. That's been a gnawing concern since the start.
Holtingar, Nathan, Robert, and All,
Believable characters, ones you root for, are the basis of any good novel, as is the "fictional dream." It took 8 years to write Forging the Blade, the novel with young Fritigern in it, so I figure by the time I get to Adrianople I'll be close to crapping off.
Seems to me, there arn't any novels out there that take-on the late period, late 3rd to 4th centuries. Usually they buzz around Caesar or the early Empire. But I'm glad to see the change. We need it. Finish it, don't rush it, and I for sure will buy a copy.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-22-2012
Not to mention one of the early ones that was out, and helped kick start
A lot of interest, Conn Iggulden's Emperor series.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Medicus matt - 05-22-2012
Quote:Seems to me, there arn't any novels out there that take-on the late period,
Eagle in the Snow - Wallace Bream.
For me, it's one of the best novels, historical or otherwise, ever written.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Nathan Ross - 05-22-2012
Quote:Plus Keith Roberts' The Boat of Fate (discussed here), Michael Curtis Ford's Gods and Legions (which was quite good, but heavy going, I thought), Rosemary Sutcliffe's The Silver Branch and Gore Vidal's Julian.Alanus post=313286 Wrote:Seems to me, there arn't any novels out there that take-on the late period,Eagle in the Snow - Wallace Bream.
But the latest crop of post-Scarrow/Iggulden 'military adventure' novelists haven't quite arrived at the later empire yet; Sidebottom writes about the mid third century, and Nick Brown is c.AD270. Richard Blake is writing a detective/espionage series set in the eastern empire of the early 7th century (Conspiracies of Rome is the first - another '...of Rome' title!), which at least shows that unusual or unfamiliar historical settings are no bar to popularity.
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-22-2012
Is Iggulden writing Roman again? Good to hear!
I agree about eagle in the snow being an excellent novel, if a little depressing!
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - mcbishop - 05-23-2012
Quote:The old-style print publishers might be a maddening bunch, but they (usually) have skilled readers and editors, not to mention marketing departments and distributors. A successful self-published novel might shift a few hundred copies at best, while even a modest first print run for a published novel runs into the thousands.You are too generous to traditional publishers. Indeed, as Smashwords' Mark Coker has observed, many good novels lie dormant for a while and it is only since the ebook revolution that we have been able to see how they can 'break' ages after they are initially published. The traditional system of returns and pulping doesn't give such dead-tree laggards a chance. Trad publishers do not necessarily understand marketing any more than economists understand the economy. Otherwise there would be no publishers' remainder shops.
Mike Bishop
Re: An abundance of Roman novels! - Nathan Ross - 05-23-2012
Quote:You are too generous to traditional publishers.I know I am! But for all the annoyances of the wonky world that publishers have created to suit themselves, there are still benefits to traditional print houses.
(This is a digression from the point of the thread, I know, but I'll apologise in advance and keep it brief!):
While ebook publishing offers a tempting route for those tired of being rejected by the fickle print houses, for every genuinely great novel turned down for reasons of ignorance, lack of imagination or the vagaries of fashion, several more do actually get through (several of those I mentioned above, for example). With an ebook, the only earnings an author can make will be on royalties for direct sales, and even with the generous terms offered by ebook publishers, unless they sell a very large number they're unlikely to make much more than pocket money. Considering that they'll probably have had to pay a professional independent editor, and do all their own marketing and publicity, this isn't much of an incentive to write and continue writing good books.
Trad publishers, on the other hand, offer free editorial and proofreading (albeit of varying quality), marketing (likewise) and distribution. Most of them make their money on a very small number of titles, usually popular bestsellers, celebrity biographies or whatever. But the majority them use some of these earnings to pay advances to new writers - often not very big advances, admittedly (although I know a couple of novelists who got quite eyebrowraising amounts!), but with an industry support structure to help sell their books it enables them, potentially at least, to begin working as professionals, write more books and in time make a living from what they do.
Without this support, and quality control, writing novels could turn into an activity for amateurs, a weekend hobby. Good books would still be written, but all but a lucky few would be lost in the torrents of garbage poured out by online publishers, who would be the only ones making any real money out of the arrangement. I know this sounds harsh, but I do believe that a system that treats writers as professionals and books as (at least theoretically) quality items rather than ephemera must surely be of benefit to the reading public and culture alike.
Anyway, enough of that :wink:
Quote:Is Iggulden writing Roman again? Good to hear!I don't know, I'm afraid. I only mentioned him as perhaps one of the founders of the current wave of Roman adventure story writers!