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+--- Thread: Linothorax again (/showthread.php?tid=2083)
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-24-2005
Interesting. I don't suppose you can cut up the fabric so that you can rotate each layer by 45 degrees to see if that improves damage resistance. I am thinking that it will improve resistance dramatically.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-25-2005
Thanks Dan,
I followed your suggestion.
I cut the cloth with a pair of scissors. And then I put it over two pork stakes to simulate the body effect. since I couldn´t afford to waste the meat no glues natural or otherwise were used.
First I tried with 8 layers. Well not enough. Knifes and lether worker´s thin wedge penetated and the stakes were stabbed
With 16 layers the last 2 layers close to the meat were enough to stop the knifes and scissors. In all my attempts the last layer was enough to hold even if the other 15 layers were penterated.
Again the lether worker´s thin wedge penetated albait with more difficulty than previously. Well the sarissa must have been deadly indeed.
The experiment came to sudden end when my wife with incredulus look on her face ordered me out of her "realm".
Sacrifices for the sake of scientific research
!: Hope that might help linothorax researchers
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - conon394 - 12-25-2005
hoplite14gr
But with just folded cloth, it seems to me you are not necessarily accounting for either the effects of the glue or the bronze scales/plates/etc that were typically part of a linothorax.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 12-25-2005
Quote:hoplite14gr
But with just folded cloth, it seems to me you are not necessarily accounting for either the effects of the glue or the bronze scales/plates/etc that were typically part of a linothorax.
I think someone covered this ground earlier on this thread. Apparently, the armour was LESS resistant to penetration when glued together. I was also under the impression that scales/plates were NOT typically fitted to linothorakes, except on the right hand side. Scale or plate reinforcement is certainly not apparent in much of the art. Given Stefanos' recent experiment and others reported elsewhere on the forum, I can see why they wouldn't have bothered.
Re: Linothorax again - conon394 - 12-26-2005
Quote: I think someone covered this ground earlier on this thread. Apparently, the armour was LESS resistant to penetration when glued together. I was also under the impression that scales/plates were NOT typically fitted to linothorakes, except on the right hand side. Scale or plate reinforcement is certainly not apparent in much of the art. Given Stefanos' recent experiment and others reported elsewhere on the forum, I can see why they wouldn't have bothered.
As far as art goes, at best it allows that various kinds of scale (or similar reinforcements) existed. Even a broad and comprehensive survey of art would still be relatively useless as evidence for usage rates, since the sample is fundamentally flawed; and even if it was not we are looking at what artists chose to represent not what was necessarily most common or typical.
Could you give me a pointer to “Stefanosâ€ÂÂ
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-26-2005
I was prompted to try this after Jason and others posted their attempts and speculations about unglued material.
What understood is that 8 layers are not enough. You need 15 minmum to be safe. You do not need glue if you sew the layers properly. I held my pieces together with haphazard stiching. This in my opinion needs more research - they way the were stiched.
So here is a list of speculations and questions:
Is there any chance that a combination of leather or hide was used along with the linen layers?
If they used less than 15 then, is it possible that they tried to compensate with bronze?
If I recall correct it was raisin glue that "hardened" the staff. Has any body tried "flour-glue"?
Based on my experience I will post my speculations about weapons use in the tactics thread.
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 12-26-2005
[quote="conon394As far as art goes, at best it allows that various kinds of scale (or similar reinforcements) existed. Even a broad and comprehensive survey of art would still be relatively useless as evidence for usage rates, since the sample is fundamentally flawed; and even if it was not we are looking at what artists chose to represent not what was necessarily most common or typical.
Could you give me a pointer to “Stefanosâ€ÂÂ
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-26-2005
Salimbeti posted a week or so ago that part of a linothorax has been found at Thebes. He thinks that it consisted of at least 10 layers but could be as many as 15 layers. The fragment still had part of the border attached so it was more likely to have been a linothorax rather than a folded bolt of cloth. It increases the likelihood that the fragment found at Mycenae was also from a linothorax. It also puts another nail into the coffins of those who still think the linothorax was made from leather or linen-covered plate.
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-26-2005
Side issue: Stefanos' experiment makes me think that modern kevlar body armour can be strengthened by doing the same thing - rotating each layer by 45 degrees. Does anyone know if this has been tried?
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-26-2005
Regarding stitching. The closer the rows, the stiffer the end result. If you look at modern kendo armour the rows of stitching are closest together on the stiffest areas. You can vary the properties of the armour just by modifying the way the quilting is done.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-27-2005
Quote:Side issue: Stefanos' experiment makes me think that modern kevlar body armour can be strengthened by doing the same thing - rotating each layer by 45 degrees. Does anyone know if this has been tried?
I read an article in "military review" here in Greece quoting NATO sources that it has been tried by both Western and Russian Manufacturerers after mid-90s so I think that they have already tried it
Quote:Regarding stitching. The closer the rows, the stiffer the end result. If you look at modern kendo armour the rows of stitching are closest together on the stiffest areas. You can vary the properties of the armour just by modifying the way the quilting is done.
So are we right to speculate that the upturned shoulder guards depicted on pottery are being kept uptight because of stiching?
My wife-she has cloth working experience-says it is possible but it would require extemely tight stiching and careful "rolling" of the thread.
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-27-2005
Quote:So are we right to speculate that the upturned shoulder guards depicted on pottery are being kept uptight because of stiching?Looking at kendo armour it certainly seems possible.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-27-2005
Quote:hoplite14gr:34yaismq Wrote:So are we right to speculate that the upturned shoulder guards depicted on pottery are being kept uptight because of stiching?Looking at kendo armour it certainly seems possible.
I am accepting that.
But please note:
When I presented the pottery image with the stiff upturned shoulderguards to my wife, she said that tough stiching could keep them up slightly turned or bented not so stiff though as they are depicted.
If there is no error from the artitist's part the stiff upward pointing material might include hard leather or leather backing stripes acording to her opinion.
Though we both considering it still a speculation.
Hope I helped an aspiring experimental armorer.
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-29-2005
Quote:I am accepting that.
But please note:
When I presented the pottery image with the stiff upturned shoulderguards to my wife, she said that tough stiching could keep them up slightly turned or bented not so stiff though as they are depicted.
Wouldn't that be dependent on the number of layers and thickness of each layer? A 30-layer European padded jack is a stiff as a sheet of plywood.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-29-2005
30 layers....Hmmm. Well it is a possibility.
So far the reanactors approach to the Greek linothorax is 15 layers.
The Bronze age fragment is 15.
Taking the conservative approach I say 15 but no one can possibly rule out 30 with certainty. Has any one tried linothorax more than 20 layers?
Kind regards