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+--- Thread: Linothorax again (/showthread.php?tid=2083)
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 12-29-2005
Ashley Holt made a particularly thick one, but I don't recall how many layers he used; I'll ask him. Thirty layers really surprised me; from my experience of 16*, it strikes me it would be very heavy, as well as "stiff as plywood". What did they look like?
I've found my linothorax goes very stiff when cold and the epomides will retain whatever shape I gave them when I took it off (lay it flat, they stick up; put it on a mannequin, they remain curved).
* In fact, it's four layers of linen on each side of a leather core. I have no proof of this as an authentic method, I just wanted to save myself work. Since it behaves pretty much as the art suggests, it could be that it IS correct.
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-29-2005
I said 30 layers because that was historically used in Europe and if Jason is correct and the linothorax uses no glue, then there are many similarities between the linothorax and the European padded jack. You don't have to use 30 layers in a linothorax to make it stiff. How many layers of heavy canvass do you think it will take to get the same effect? We have no idea what sort of cloth might have been used - whether a dozen layers of heavy canvas-like cloth or more layers of something lighter. It is also possible that the shoulders were heavier than the torso since it is likely that there is a double-layer wrapped around the chest. So we might have 15 layers on the torso and 25-30 layers on the shoulders. Too much is unknown. Hopefully the find at Thebes will shed more light on the subject.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 12-30-2005
Quote:I said 30 layers because that was historically used in Europe and if Jason is correct and the linothorax uses no glue, then there are many similarities between the linothorax and the European padded jack. You don't have to use 30 layers in a linothorax to make it stiff. How many layers of heavy canvass do you think it will take to get the same effect? We have no idea what sort of cloth might have been used - whether a dozen layers of heavy canvas-like cloth or more layers of something lighter. It is also possible that the shoulders were heavier than the torso since it is likely that there is a double-layer wrapped around the chest. So we might have 15 layers on the torso and 25-30 layers on the shoulders. Too much is unknown. Hopefully the find at Thebes will shed more light on the subject.
I think we've always worked on the basis of 15 layers because that's the only figure for which we have any evidence, in our period. We use a cloth weight which is suitable for chitons, as well as linothorakes, so each layer is very lightweight. I have managed to get hold of some "linen canvas" ( which I previously thought was an oxymoron) which, while clearly heavier than what I had been using, is still very flexible. I would guess it's two-to-three times heavier than my normal material, but I would assume this WON'T mean you can use one-third the layers, because it seems to be the layering itself which provides much of the resistance to penetration, as one might expect.
I'd been assuming that Jason, Stefanos and others were working with dress-weight cloth, too. Perhaps they can clarify that.
I recall someone suggesting, earlier, that linothorakes might be double-breasted and the general idea that the thickness might vary across the pieces is an interesting one. I'd like to hear more about what gave rise to this idea.
If Jason has been using standard dress-weight cloth in his experiments and finding the armour as arrow-resistant as he has, then this would suggest that doubling would be unnecessary. I've worn linothorakes made entirely of linen, as well as my own, and I find them the lightest armour I've experienced. The Legionary Lorica Segmentata is next and the biggest drag of all is my mail-shirt, which weighs twenty-six pounds (no, that's not a lot, because it only has to cover a slim frame!). My theory is that it was this lightness that recommended the linothorax to the Hoplites, as an alternative to bronze armour.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-30-2005
Sorry for not claryfying earlier.
I used not the fine clothing linen but mid thicknes linen used for furniture tapestry and covering. Like the one that some people cover their coach or armchair. After Paul´s and Dan´s suggestion perhaps another brave soul might try with differen linen type material.
Don´t try this at the kitchen, don´t skewr the beef stake or your beloved wife might decide to reenact the Argive mother. (You know the one with the roof tile) :lol:
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: Linothorax again - john m roberts - 12-30-2005
This raises another question - what weights and thicknesses of linen did the ancients use? We know that Egyptians made linen so fine it was almost transparent. But linen was also used for ships' sails. I would think the sailcloth would be the type to use for armor and would necessitate far fewer layers. I"m interested in constructing both a linothorax and a quilted jack but am stymied by what cloth to use. Osnaburg seems close to authentic, but does anyone know what kind of linen is used for modern fencing jackets? That stuff is tough as hell. I wore one for years and it never got ripped despite thousands of hits from what amounted to steel whips. That might be the cloth to use.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 12-30-2005
John,
Given the dearth of evidence, I think you're free to experiment with what you think most likely. If, as you say, you lean towards thick cloth and fewer layers, make one that way. You could use linen of the weight of canvas I have without creating any problems for yourself in the manufacturing process and I think you might be able to use even heavier cloth. I glued my original linothorax, so the thickness and weight of the cloth gave me no sewing problems. If you're planning to sew the thing, consider what effect your choice of cloth will have! I've no doubt you'll be able to do it, but it could make the job more difficult and time-consuming.
Thanks for the clarification, Stefanos, it sounds like you were using what we call hessian - almost like sacking cloth.
I should have kept the lamb ribs I got cheap from Tesco - ideal stabbing material!
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 12-30-2005
I'm pretty sure the scale cuirass found in Tut's tomb had a backing of multi-layered linen. I'll try and find more details.
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 12-31-2005
The weight of the cloth i believe should resemble what the ancients would have used for sail cloth, for reasons of loom type i feel that Egyptian linen would have been preferred (no evidence just feeling) if you are looking for some contempary sources a mummified cat (circa 700-300 BC) is wrapped in a criss cross pattern with strips of linen in varying weight from fine to quite heavy.
http://www.egyptianholiday.net/mummified.htm
its the middle one in the first picture, you cannot see the detail here but i have a much more detailed photo.
Re: Linothorax again - hoplite14gr - 12-31-2005
In hot countries you need some insulation from metalic materials in summer.
Dan is right on that. Medical records of the 8th army in Italy and the dessert talk of troopers burned when touching their tanks!!
In my opinon fine linen was for insulation and thic linen for armoring.
Jason mentioned an example of ancient patern but I do not think it was the only patern.
Paul, I should have thought of the ribbs!!!!
Kind regards
Re: Linothorax again - john m roberts - 12-31-2005
On to technique. Anybody, what are some good sources for heavy linen or cotton? Ordinary fabric shops don't stock sail-weight cloth. Then there's the stitching problem. Handstitch with a sail repair kit? Leather sewing tools? Or do you just peg the layers down, hammer nails at the stitching points and follow the nail holes with thread. What kind of thread? I have lots of leather thread and artificial sinew. The main thing is, I'm lazy and am looking for the easiest way to do it.[/i]
Re: Linothorax again - Jason Hoffman - 01-01-2006
John
Old infantry soldier here, we used a thing called a "sew-all" you should be able to get them at any camping store, they would be excellent for this. Make sure you read the instructions there is a knack to using them. If you go to this page they look very similar to an eyed bodkin
http://www.officegiant.co.uk/products.a ... ID=PG24140
in fact you can use an eyed bodkin, with your thread through the eye shove the bodkin through your layers of cloth then pull the bodkin back whilst holding onto the loop of thread that you just shoved through.
you can then place that loop around the next loop you push through and make a running stitch or use a seperate thread and just run it up through the loops pulling each one tight as you go.
I know it sound complicated but if you have a go you will work it out very quickly. and its surprisingly fast.
Jason
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 01-01-2006
Jason's "sew-all" sounds like a great idea. If you can't get one, you could hammer nails through, prior to stitching, or you could use an awl, a drill or a Dremel (model-makers power-tool). You could, of course, just glue round the edges. If you sew, you could sew on an edging in linen or leather. You've obviously got to do something to prevent the edges from fraying. The type of stitch you use presents you with a lot of choices, too. The simplest is a running-stitch.
Re: Linothorax again - Dan Howard - 01-01-2006
If glue is not used to join the layers, then it is imperative not to cut the weave when making holes. Some sort of awl can be used to gently spread the weave enabling needles, rivets, etc to pass through. Hammering nails through or punching holes will tear the weave and cause it to unravel around the holes.
Re: Linothorax again - Vincula - 01-01-2006
I see it's Monday in Australia already.
Re: Linothorax again - Anonymous - 01-02-2006
Ashley Holt informs me that, having learned that my linothorax had eight layers of linen, he assumed that was per side, rather than in total, so he glued eight layers to each side of a 1/8" piece of leather. However:-
"...then I went and put two composites of this together. It seemed like a good idea at the time."
That makes 32 layers of linen and 1/4" of leather, on the thorax and epomides. Ashley thought he could manage with just the one thickness for the pteruges (!)
So, Dan, it appears that 32 layers is possible for a functional linothorax. Ashley has less trouble over the weight and rigidity of the armour in general than over the fact that he made it just a little too long, with the result that he can't bend at the waist. I've never seen him try to run around in it, though, but he's a big lad and shouldn't have too much trouble. I've asked him about this. I believe he went for a run in Hoplite kit, once, but that was wearing a steel cuirass.
Ashley is not a fair test model, really. When I first met him, he had built an aspis which I found much too heavy and lacking in the amount of "lip" that would have made it easier to carry. He actually injured his shoulder using it. I suggested it would still be strong enough for use if he removed some of the wood. This he did, although the result is a shield which is still heavy by comparison with most others. Apparently, he removed ten kilos of material. Yes, KILOS. No wonder his shoulder hurt!
I spoke today with someone who was in on some kevlar armour testing. He said that, not only did the US and Russia turn the layers to change the direction of the weft, but the Brits twisted the threads before weaving to get a denser weave and then turned the layers. He had a baton round shot at him at 20 metres and was thrown forward a couple of yards. He says there is a layer of something else built in between the layers of kevlar, to spread the impact. He attributes to this the fact that he suffered no concussive injury from the baton round. Apparently, the Army made mock-ups out of linen, prior to producing the kevlar pieces. He couldn't say what weight of linen was used.