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Catapults as torture devices? - Epictetus - 06-11-2012
Were catapults or some sort of “military engine” ever used as torture devices? I’m not familiar with their construction, so I don’t even know if this was possible. Any ideas?
Quote:Meanwhile public slaves brought Theron into the theatre in chains. He had an escort that befitted him: that is, he was followed by the wheel, the rack*, fire, and whips – Providence was according him the proper prize for his efforts.
* The word here translated “rack” is strictly “catapult,” a term normally used of a military engine; this use has not been explained, but presumably the machine was used to stretch a victim.
Chariton, Chaereas and Callirhoe, 3.4, translated by B.P. Reardon
I imagine the original Greek might help, but unfortunately I don’t have access to it.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Titvs Statilivs Castvs - 06-11-2012
I guess (but it's really just a guess) that the catapult and the torture device might have the "torsion-system" in common (accumulation of power by using ropes/sinew which are twisted, invented somewhere in the 4th century IIRC). That would explain the similarity the writer apparently sees in them.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Vindex - 06-11-2012
Sadly, the human trait of cruelty can turn anything into a torture device so I think the quick answer is yes!
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Nathan Ross - 06-11-2012
I'd imagine the connection is the word tormenta, referring to the sort of torsion spring Castus mentioned above. It was used for a catapult, but also for any machine involving twisting and tightening, like a rack. I don't know the etymology, but perhaps our word 'torment' derives from this?
It constantly surprises me that torture methods commonly associated with the darkest medieval barbarity (racks, branding, burning at the stake etc) appear so frequently in antiquity!
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - S. Marcer - 06-11-2012
If it can be useful this is the original Greek of the passage above:
[7] Μεταξὺ δὲ οἰκέται δημόσιοι τὸν Θήρωνα δεδεμένον εἰς τὸ θέατρον ἦγον μετὰπομπῆς ἐκείνῳ πρεπούσης: ἐπηκολούθει γὰρ αὐτῷ τροχὸς καὶ καταπέλτης καὶ πῦρ καὶ μάστιγες, ἀποδιδούσης αὐτῷ τῆς προνοίας τὰ ἔπαθλα τῶν ἀγώνων.
Chariton, De Chaerea et Callirhoe, 3.4.7
About the origin of the word 'torment', as Mr. Ross has already noted, the Italian substantive Tormento (eng. Torment) came from the Latin verb torqueo (to turn) and then passed in the common language with his metaphoric meaning.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Epictetus - 06-11-2012
Okay, so "rack" seems to be a good enough translation for the general idea, and it probably wasn't an actual seige machine of some sort. (Although perhaps one could be modified for the purpose.)
Thanks! You guys are quite helpful.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2012
Well, you could tie someones arms to 2 Catapult/torsion machines, and start cranking, the Rack/ comming from the Rack and Pinion gear for stopping the tension being released?
I suppose that was a possibility? One way of getting someone to give info..... :-?
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - D B Campbell - 06-11-2012
Been trying to reply to this thread all morning, but was thwarted by repeated "Error 403"s. :?
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - D B Campbell - 06-11-2012
Apologies for tip-toeing very carefully around this thread, but you might be interested in this:
First, the Loeb is available on Google Books, and the relevant page (p. 178, I think) can even be located with a little digging. However, as Ligus' post has now demonstrated, the word is definitely "catapult", καταπέλτης -- so it's not some kind of torsion-powered rack!
Second, Diodorus Siculus (20.71.2) actually mentions the use of catapults for torturing victims. He explains that they might be "bound to/into/upon (?) catapults and shot". The Greek (τοὺς δὲ εἰς τοὺς καταπέλτας ἐνδεσμεύων κατετόξευεν) is not sufficiently precise for us to decide whether the victim was tied-up upon an enormous catapult and shot out (unlikely, in my opinion, although Geer adopts this interpretation in the Loeb translation), or simply tied up in front of (perhaps even to the front of) a catapult, which would be a terrifying enough prospect, given the relatively high velocity of the shot.
I think that's probably the answer here, although I liked the various ingenious methods of adapting a catapult for dungeon-use. :wink:
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Nathan Ross - 06-11-2012
Quote:I liked the various ingenious methods of adapting a catapult for dungeon-use. :wink:It does bend the mind in some curious directions
hock: I had wondered whether the word might apply to an actual machine or just a method (stretching somebody on a windlass?) - but if it's actually a catapult then clearly the machine itself is being used...
Perhaps, I thought, the unfortunate victim's wrists could be tied to the tensed catapult arms and then the machine released... but surely that would result in the sudden dislocation of his limbs, at least, and possible actual dismemberment. Not a great way of extracting information, if that's the idea. Similarly 'shooting' somebody from a huge catapult sounds a bit fatal (unless they're being 'fired' repeatedly at the dungeon wall, which sounds both unpleasant and rather farcical :-o ).
Tying somebody to the front of a catapult, meanwhile, might resemble the old Moghul punishment (adopted by the British) of blowing victims from guns, although probably a bit less spectacular. Again, though, more execution than torture...
I think Byron's suggestion sounds the most likely, although it would surely involve assembling the catapult somehow backwards, or inside out, so a steady increasing outward pressure could be exerted rather than a sudden violent release? This is assuming that the victim is placed prone on the body of the catapult, if you see what I mean...
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 06-11-2012
This discussion immediately reminded me of the following scene :
Start at 1:13:31 and watch till the end...
http://youtu.be/EZKAkuDfRyA
M.VIB.M.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Macedon - 06-11-2012
Actually, gents, after some research, the use of the word catapult as a torture device seems to not be peculiar at all, it is the torture that saint Paul was put through. Here are some relative accounts:
"(1321.) *καταπέλτης· εἶδος βασανιστηρίου, ὡς ὅπλον χαλκοῦν vn, ἐν ᾧ ἐξαρθροῦσι τὰ μέλη οἱ δήμιοι" Hesychius Lexicogr., Lexicon (Α—Ο). Alphabetic letter kappa entry 1321 line 1.
"catapult, a kind of torture, like a bronze weapon, with which the executioners dislocate (the victims') members"
"Προὔκειτο τοίνυν κατὰ γῆς ἡ τοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰκὼν ἐπὶ σταυροῦ αὐτὸν ἔχουσα τεταμένον, τὸ βασανιστήριόν τε ὄργανον, ὃ καταπέλτης καλεῖται.", Symeon Metaphrastes Hist., Biogr. et Hagiogr., Vita Stephani Iunioris.
"There was an image of Christ exposed on the ground, stretched on the cross and the instrument of torture called a catapult"
Paul was given the choice of either stepping on the cross or surrender to the catapult. When he refused to abandon Christ, the general was furious and put him to the catapult :
"Ὃς εὐθέως θυμοῦ περίπλεως γεγονὼς κελεύει ἀποδυθέντα τὸν ἅγιον πρὸς τῷ καταπέλτῃ διαταθῆναι. Ἔνθα ταῖς δυσὶ σανίσιν αὐτὸν ἐρρωμένως ὑποπιέσαντες καὶ σιδήροις ἅπαν αὐτοῦ διαπερονήσαντες τὸ σῶμα κατὰ κεφαλῆς ἐξαρτῶσιν."
"...he ordered the saint to be stripped and be stretched on the catapult. Between the two boards, they pressed him hard and everywhere piercing him with irons (nails,bars, needles?), they hanged his body from his head."
The same torture is described here also :
"Θυμωθεὶς δὲ ὁ στρατηγὸς τοῦτον ἐκδυθῆναι προστάττει, εἶθ’ οὕτως ἁπλωθῆναι πρὸς τοὺς καταπέλτας· καὶ περισφίγξαντες οἱ ὑπηρέται τὸν ἅγιον πρὸς ταῖς δυσὶ σανίσιν ἀπό τε τραχήλου ἕως ἀστραγάλων, καὶ διὰ σιδήρων τούτου τὰ μέλη καθηλώσαντες καὶ ἐπὶ κεφαλῆς κρεμάσαντες", Stephanus Diaconus Hagiogr., Vita Stephanii Iunioris.
"Angered, the general ordered him to be stripped of his clothes and stretched on the catapults (here it is plural, as though each board would be one catapult). The servants pressed the saint with the boards from his neck to his ankles and with irons they fastened his members and hang him from his head."
There are also some mentions and descriptions in the 4th book of the Macchabees (4.9.) :
"τοιαῦτα δὲ λέγοντα οἱ δορυφόροι δήσαντες αὐτὸν εἷλκον ἐπὶ τὸν καταπέλτην, ἐφ' ὃν δήσαντες αὐτὸν ἐπὶ τὰ γόνατα καὶ ταῦτα ποδάγραις σιδηραῖς ἐφαρμόσαντες τὴν ὀσφὺν αὐτοῦ περὶ τροχιαῖον σφῆνα κατέκαμψαν, περὶ ὃν ὅλος περὶ τὸν τροχὸν σκορπίου τρόπον ἀνακλώμενος ἐξεμελίζετο. κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα στενοχωρούμενος καὶ τὸ σῶμα ἀγχόμενος"
"In this condition, gasping for breath and in anguish of body, While he was saying these things, the guards bound him and dragged him to the catapult; they tied him to it on his knees, and fitting iron clamps on them, they twisted his back around the wedge on the wheel, so that he was completely curled back like a scorpion, and all his members were disjointed. In this condition, gasping for breath and in anguish of body.."
This last translation I found here
I guess that this could be another use of the same device.
So, I would say that this catapult(s) device seems to me to be comprised of two boards somehow fastened to each other like a book. The victim would be bolted or nailed on one or both and then crushed or pulled.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Renatus - 06-12-2012
It looks as though 'catapult' may be a euphemism.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - M. Demetrius - 06-12-2012
In whatever language, that sounds like no fun at all.
Re: Catapults as torture devices? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-12-2012
Actually, Nathan, I was thinking of nothing more complex than having a victim
between 2 catapult, his wrists tied to the pullback mechanisms, and then start cranking them apart, one notch at a time...
or if to were really mean, use four, :twisted:
Mind you, I did think about launching someone from a large onager too! :mrgreen:
possibly speaks volumns about me!