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Germanic Combat Techniques - Harjaz - 06-21-2012
Hi Everyone,
We've made a video demonstrating how we think the Germanic Tribes fought. We have very little literary evidence for early Germanic combat, so we've just experimented with our replica weapons, and we've come across some basic techniques which are very effective for fighting. We're still in the process of reconstructing this lost form of combat, so any feedback would be very much appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIsT2iWCn_k
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Robert Vermaat - 06-21-2012
Nice fottage Dan, thanks for sharing that.
But the question it raises with me, especially when I'm told about 'reconstructing lost form[s] of combat', how you compensate for the fact that combat is not only training one-on-one with blunt weapons, but also mass-fighting with the aim to maim or kill.
Now I've watched a lot of footage from society that practise fighting in line (Linienkampf) as well as re-enacted massed battle, but it still comes down on a one-on-one (you and your immediate opponent) instead of real battle.
Especially the very strckt rules against damaging your opponent by prohibiting strikes at certain body areas, as well as not fighting will live steel while supported by javelins and/or archers, would in my opinion seriously compromise any real effort in 'reconstructing lost form[s] of combat', or indeed a scientific approach to reconstruct any forms of ancient combat.
Your thoughts?
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Harjaz - 06-21-2012
Hi Robert,
Thanks for the feedback! Though we do 'reenactment' combat, a lot of the moves that probably would have been present in the original form of Germanic combat we are unable to use, as they involve shots to the head, which are unsafe. From my experience with these techniques, you could easily use them to maim and kill with real weapons. Our next video will include combat with more than two warriors, as well as military formations. We have fought with some 'crappy' shields, and they are still used in the same way, but just more violently. In a sense, with an all our fight with padded weapons (so we don't have to pull blows), we've found that the weapons are still used in a similar manner. The purpose of this video is to attempt to reconstruct the one-on-one, or the individual fighting techniques of the Germanics, and we do know they had them because of the tradition of dueling. In a sense, our reenactment combat has two forms: the one that we actually use to fight with eachother, which has hit-zones, and prohibited strikes, and the very slow, demonstration from, where we can strike wherever we want (this would be the closest to the actual style), but we do not actually fight with that one (for obvious saftey reasons).
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Robert Vermaat - 06-22-2012
Quote:In a sense, with an all our fight with padded weapons (so we don't have to pull blows), we've found that the weapons are still used in a similar manner.Could you elaborate on that a bit more? Because this, to me at least, seems to be what decides whether you are really recreating ancient fighting techniques, or doing something not quite that, but more you choreographed fighting.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Harjaz - 06-23-2012
Most of the fighting you saw in the video was not choreographed. We were just being more careful than we normally would be in an all-out fight by not hitting as hard as we could, and by being more careful with our shields. I have fought one of my members with shields where we didn't mind if they got damaged, and we hit as hard as we could. They were still used in exactly the same way. The shield hook however, becaue of the speed of the fight, and the lack of regard for the shields, was more difficult to perform, but still worked very well.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Marcus Julius - 06-23-2012
You mentioned the use of the shield edge as a striking surface. If you don't do it already, might I suggest also using it to attack your opponent's shield or even weapon? I do quite a bit of it with my late period round shield. It can be used this way just as safely as your shield hook.
Thrust out with the edge against a sword strike. This counter stops his attack earlier in the swing than he is expecting, and throws off his timing and takes away momentum for any followup attack, or return parries. A simultaneous sword strike or spear thrust edged in right along the line of your shield goes straight into his right shoulder if timed right.
Attack the opponents shield with the edge of yours: A strike against the inner side of the shield (about where your crescent decorations is a good spot) will turn it inward, opening up most of his left side to your sword. A similar strike to the bottom of the shield will open him up to overhand strikes. Another technique that I love to use with my round shield is to strike the other person's umbo, pushing the entire shield downward or to the side.
Also, using the shield to pin something down. Drive the edge of the shield into his right shoulder and you take away all the strength of his sword arm, as well as limiting the attack angles he has around the shield. Press the edge into the top of his shield, pinning it to his upper arm so that he can't raise it to defend as you strike for the head.
You may also like to try reversing your shield hook. Bait him with a strike to his weapon side, when he pushes the shield across his body to block it, hook the back edge of your shield to the back edge of his, and pull. You will have his entire backside exposed to you.
All of these moves have to be quick, violent, and accompanied with weapon strikes and footwork in order to catch your opponent off guard, but they do work. In fact, using those will make your hook more effective, because they make it less predictable. A shield is just as much a part of your weapon "system" as the spear or sword, itself. Too many people assume that the shield is only for defense. As you said a few times in the video, the best defense is good offense. If all you do is defend, eventually the attacker will find an opening. You will never stop them from attacking you through defense, only by attacking back and disabling your enemy.
Now, for a couple observations, from my experience in western martial arts studies:
First, Weapon strikes: your strikes seem very short, quick, and look to lack power. Have you tried doing some of it with an actual blade on flesh? I don't mean to actually take up steel and cut each other up, but a side of beef, a hog, deer, or some such thing that is already dead? You might be surprised at how much strength and momentum it takes to get through skin and to at least tear up a muscle enough to limit it's use, or to cut enough blood vessels to cause your enemy to bleed out.
Second, I also notice that your "opponent" in the video has the behavior of someone who is afraid of being pummeled. Is he just naturally timid, or has he had this behavior beaten into him through being used as the practice dummy a few too many times?
Don't get me wrong, I applaud you for exploring into unknown territory with this. I don't want to discourage you, but ask because I want to see this explored further. I see a long body of work, here, that is just barely in it's beginning stages.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Medicus matt - 06-23-2012
Are you stabbing each other in the face and neck with your spears? If not, then you're not simulating the most common forms of Germanic combat.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Harjaz - 06-23-2012
Marcus Julius, I have used the shield for ramming my opponents shield many times, but we found it too damaging to our shields. However, when we use shields that we don't mind destorying, we use it rather frequantly. Another move i like doing that i didn't do in the video includes hooking and opening up his shield, and then ramming him with the umbo (Germanic umbos at this time usually were conical and rather pointy, or even had a rod or spike projecting from them). If i'm using a padded weapons, I stike much harder, as I don't have to pull my blow. If you get cracked across the shoulder with a wooden sword, it rather hurts, so i really don't want to do that. In an actual fight, I would strike much harder. The principles of the moves are still the same, just the power of the attack would be increased. Well, as for my opponent, he is a little timid, but as you could see with his proficiency with a two handed spear, he does have some skill (the two handed spear is similar to his bow staff that he practices with at his Kung Fu club). I fought in a similar fashion when I was first starting out with shield and spear/sword. I was affraid of being hit, but I managed to overcome that fear and go on the offensive. I'm sure he'll do the same.
Medicus, we did demonstrate a move where you move your opponents spearshaft out of the way with your own, hook his shield and then stab him in the neck or face. However, we don't do these moves when we are actually fighting for obvious saftey reasons. When you're using any fighting style for the purpose of sparring and not killing, there are certain moves that you simply can't do.
In our next video, I'll include more of Marcus's shield techniques. This was just the pilot video, and not absolutely everything was included in it. We just made it to test out our idea of demonstrating our reenactment to other reenactors through youtube. A far better and improved version will soon follow. If you have any other suggestions on what to add or leave out, please let me know!
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Marcus Julius - 06-24-2012
Quote:If i'm using a padded weapons, I stike much harder, as I don't have to pull my blow. If you get cracked across the shoulder with a wooden sword, it rather hurts, so i really don't want to do that. In an actual fight, I would strike much harder. The principles of the moves are still the same, just the power of the attack would be increased.So, I'm guessing that the answer to my question of testing on actual flesh is a "no". I really think you should try it. It will be an eye opener, I promise.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Ragimond - 06-24-2012
Heja-Harjaz-As a fellow germanic tribesmen..lol..I think for you first demi it was a good.
I got a few questions when you were talking about war knife did you mean handseax?
vimose seax or war knife or Germanischen Hiebschwert as I know they are use quick and with deadly force..and yes thank you about the fact fights were short and sweet..lol
It's great to see folks trying to fill in the gaps on how they might have taking up the fight..there is alot lost do to history...
Keep up the fight my friend.
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Alanus - 06-24-2012
Keep up the fight, but be careful.
Reminds me of the time when I was younger. A number of my associates-- the former Alemanni Cadavers-- conducted a "mock" battle in the most realistic way possible. They all died from horrific wounds and loss of blood. Luckily, I arrived late, having stopped at McDonalds for a coffee. Took most of the remaining day, but I buried them all. :roll:
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Harjaz - 06-25-2012
I haven't tried testing my weapons on meat. I've been planning to though one of these days. Would it be hard to get a pig deemed unfit for human consumption at a slaughterhouse or something? Raymond, the warknife of this time is a little differant than the saex of the early middle ages. The blade is shaped a little differantly, as is the handle construction and tang. Warknives have been found at Hjortspring in the 4th cen. BC, and at Grossromstedt around 0 AD. The 'vimose saex' is actually a shorter, thick bladed single edged sword. Often with the smaller single edged swords, the line between knife and sword is blurred. I actually have a sharp and battle ready single edged sword that I made, and it can hack through 2 inch branches in one blow. The single edged swords have more heft and splitting power than double edged swords of a similar size, and they have a longer cut arc. However, they are at a disadvantage as they cannot cut on the reverse blow. I've put a picture of one of our warknives here. You'll see the difference between this example and a later saex.[attachment=4404]DSCN7368-1024x768.jpg[/attachment]
Alanus, I plan to be careful. We did fight (very carefully) with our dull metal blades once, and one of our friends got poked in the cheek. It wasn't serrious at all, but it was too close to his eye for comfort, so we've dropped the metal blades for now, and are using wooden ones only (plus we don't have to worry about banging up our blades or shields too badly). I really wonder what went through your friends heads when they tried to fight with real sharp weapons. Reenacting a battle where people died from horrific wounds in the most realistic way possible will inevitably result in people dying from horrific wounds.
hock:
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Alanus - 06-25-2012
Hello, Harjaz
I was just kidding, tongue in cheek. But "live show" mock battles performed without proper (non "battle ready") equipment can result in dying by horrific wounds in the worst way possible. I'd hate to see anyone hurt or blinded by the opponent's wrong move. :roll:
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - M. Demetrius - 06-25-2012
Quote:Alanus, I plan to be careful. We did fight (very carefully) with our dull metal blades once, and one of our friends got poked in the cheek. It wasn't serrious at all, but it was too close to his eye for comfort,Well, at the risk of seeming overly cautious, it makes sense to use safety glasses, especially when practicing. The clear racquet ball glasses that we use for needledfelt mock combat (probably still being overcautious) are nearly invisible, but they are designed and engineered for impact protection, and don't show up much in photos. A poke in the eye with a wooden sword could do permanent eye damage, even if it didn't cut.
Yes, losing an eye is authentic, but not desirable. If the ancients had polycarbonate lenses available, what do you think they would have done?
Re: Germanic Combat Techniques - Lyceum - 06-25-2012
Well....erm...I told myself I wasn't going to comment on this...but what the hell.
Learn to actually fight first before trying to reconstruct something which has no sources. I'm sorry but...without going even into specific problems your sense of body movement is absolutely terrible. I mean...
Look there are several schools teaching stuff that will acclimatise one to actually having some sense of control over the body, Boxing, Wrestling, MMA etc and there several traditions of Fencing: Sport Fencing, JMA, North Indian stuff, Filipino Stuff and the great work done by those focusing on HEMA.
Maybe check some of this stuff out first? Everything is just so...badly contra logical and biomechanics.