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+--- Thread: Show your Roman artwork (/showthread.php?tid=20975)
Show your Roman artwork - Reno Melitensis - 10-05-2013
This is a shield that I made for the IBII mods, It was used in the Osprey books but I have not seen or found any images of it, and it is absent from the ND. IS there any possibility that it is the shield of the Placidi Valentiniani Felices. I also uploaded the shield pattern used fby a soldier or the unit as a Comitatensis.
Also I uploaded a picture of a Numerus and a Centinarius, to what unit may that shield belong, it's text says that it was found on a mural in sicily.
Cheers
Show your Roman artwork - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-05-2013
The Felices Valentiniani actually have no known shield depiction - it has been extrapolated that the addition of the Valentinianenses Iuniores to the Illyrian Army and the Valentinianenses Felices to the Gallic army were the two Senior and Junior units the Placidi Valentiniani were divided into.
The Iuniores, presumably in Dalmatia, displayed an emblem of a figure holding a cross and an orb - presumably Valentinian III as he is oftend depicted this way on Coins of his reign.
The shield you made would be a highly personalized variant of the depiction, but not unreasonable. I would reccomend that you also increase the fanciness of the appearance of the unit - the Placidi were presumably Palatines or Bucellarii, meaning they would have been outfitted with some of the best equipment in the empire.
Also, the image of the Comitatenses and Numerus you posted is useful, we have discussed those particular displays in the past. Although I should note that Numerus was a regiment, and that Maximianus was most probably a member of the Auxilia Palatina, I see a notable resemblence to the Cornuti Seniores shield pattern.
Show your Roman artwork - Reno Melitensis - 10-05-2013
Thanks for the reply Magister. The ides that the Valentiniaci where Palatina is a new one to me, but considering that Aetius was Magister Militum he would have elevated this new unit to the higher status. Being Bucellari is also an interesting suggestion. Do you thing that at the Battle of Chalons the Herculani, Iovi, Brachiati, Cornuti and Petulantes where present along side the Valentiniaci.
So the picture labeled as a Numerus, do you guess that it is a shield variant of the Cornuti, if so, units shields may have differed from milites to milites. I made some thing similar to the Secunda Brittanica, will post some pictures of their shields locked in shieldwall.
Cheers
Show your Roman artwork - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-06-2013
Heya Rennie.
The Placidi Valentiniani are explicitly listed in the Notitia as Palatina, yes.
It's hard to say what units were at Chalons. We know the Romans at least were very well equipped and supplied because Tonatius Ferreolus had made preparations for a Hunnic Invasion of Gaul or Italy, as is recorded by Sidonius Apollinaris. He even records that the Barbarian allies were supplied by the Romans as well.
We can't say for certain the Valentiniani participated at Chalons - although I think it is likely. Jordanes mentions (aside from the Visigoths and Alans) "Olibrones, Riparii, Armoriciani, Saxons, and Liticiani" at Chalons.
The Armoriciani were the rebellious Armoricans of Brittany, which were a province of the Roman Empire supplanted with regional nobles in the provincial government.
The Liticiani were likely the Litaui from the areas of Cornwall and Wales, who were still loyal to the Roman state and many of whom had come across the straits from Exeter and settled in Brittany and Normandy.
The Saxons were the old tribe of the Frisii who were settled in Flanders and Kent in 297 and remained there as Foederati until at least 425.
The Riparii were Riparienses or Ripenses - Grades of Limitanei that were re-enforcing the core of the Gallic Field Army.
The Olibrones are probably what the Placidi Valentiniani Felices would have fallen under - "once Roman soldiers and now the flower of the allied forces" meaning they were likely Palatina and Bucellarii for Aetius and his Generals, and probably what was left of the Gallic field army.
In terms of numbers modern estimates could put the Romans and their allies at around 55,000 men:22,500 for the Roman Gallic Field Army (this is at 2/3 strength of AHM Jones listing of 34000) , 20,000-ish for the Visigoths (based on Peter Heather's estimates), and about 5000-10000 others (most of the Roman's gallic allies had been weakened by successful campaigning, the Franks and Burgundians were also split between the two sides).
Therefore you really cannot say what units participated.
You know I also have spent years working alone on my own total war mod (INVASIO BARBAROVM: VLTIMVS ROMANORVM), and from the perspective of a Total War Modder, here is what I reccomend for a Battle of Chalons:
Max out the nations on either side (5 I think for each, its been a while):
Romans:
Aetius and his Hunnic Bucellarii - Silver equipment, 3 silver experience bars
2 Auxilia Palatina - Silver Equipment, 3 Bronze Experience Bars
3 units of Comitatenses - bronze equipment, 2 bronze experience bars
6 units of Heavy Limitanei - 2 bronze experience bars
2 units of Archers (possibly a unit of Arcuballistarii) - 2 bronze experience bars
4 units of Cavalry - one catafractarii, one medium cavalry, two horse-archers - 2-3 bronze experience bars, maybe bronze equipment on the catafractarii
Visigoths:
Theodoric and his Comitatus Bodyguard - silver equipment, 1 silver bar
Thorismund and his Comitatus Bodyguard - silver equipment, 2 bronze bars
4 units heavy warband - Bronze equipment, 2 bronze bars
6 units light warband - 2 bronze bars
2 units archers - none
6 units cavalry - some light, some heavy, all lancers - 2 bronze bars
Alans:
Sambida and his Bodyguard - silver equipment, 1 silver bar
5 units Catafractarii - silver equipment, 2 bronze bars
4 units Horse Archers - bronze equipment, 2 bronze bars
Franks:
Merovaeus (name is dubious) and bodyguard - 2 bronze bars, bronze equipment
2 units lancer cavalry
5 units light infantry
2 units archers
Romano-British/Armoricans:
1 Bodyguard unit
2 units lancers/heavy cavalry
2 units heavy infantry
4 units light infantry
1 unit archers
Huns:
Attila and his bodyguard unit - silver equipment, 3 silver experience bars
9 units light lancers or swordsmen cavalry - 2-3 bronze experience bars
10 units horse archers - bronze equipment, 3 bronze experience bars
Ostrogoths:
Valamir and his bodyguard unit - silver equipment, 3 bronze experience bars
3 units lancer cavalry
6 units heavy infantry
8 units light infantry
1 unit archers
Gepids:
Ardaric and his bodyguard unit
1 unit lancer cavalry
4 units heavy infantry
4 units light infantry
Thuringians:
Bodyguard unit
1 unit lancer cavalry
4 units heavy infantry
4 units light infantry
Franks:
Bodyguard unit
1 unit lancer cavalry
4 units heavy infantry
2 units light infantry
2 units infantry archers
These armies are open to individual discretion of course, I just gave sort of a basic idea of what you're looking for. More and less experience on either side, etc.
Battle layout:
Romans and their allies should be on the top of a ridge running north-south the center of the map, with a small stream on the very south side running alongside a road. The roman and hunnic lines will run north-south.
From the Roman point of view:
Romans facing Gepids, Franks, and Thuringians on the Left, Roman cavalry should be on the right side of the left flank, the Roman infantry should be slightly wrapped around the overall enemy forces' left flank. As many as possible should be in Fulcrum formation
Alans, Franks, and Armoricans facing the Huns in the center.
Visigoths facing the Ostrogoths on the Right. Thorismund should command the cavalry on the left side of the right flank, and theodoric should be commanding the infantry on the right side of the right flank, but shouldn't have reached the top of the hill yet. Thorismund should be on the top of the hill.
Hope this helps you Rennie
Show your Roman artwork - Robert Vermaat - 10-09-2013
Quote:Also I uploaded a picture of a Numerus and a Centinarius, to what unit may that shield belong, it's text says that it was found on a mural in sicily.Just to clarify, a 'numerus' is not a soldier but a unit type of unspecified size (pl. numeri). The soldier in Graham Sumners painting is a 'member of an unspecified numerus', not a numerus himself.
The 'centinarius' should be 'centenarius', the late Roman version of the centurio in the new style units from Diocletian onwards.
Show your Roman artwork - Paul Elliott - 10-09-2013
Quote:The scene illustrates Marc Antony at the battle of Actium when he learns that Cleopatra is leaving him up the creek without a paddle!.
<face ... palm> fantastic!
Show your Roman artwork - Robert Vermaat - 10-09-2013
Quote::-o Mr.Sumner you are a Godlike person to me and certainly not just to me...same as this picture-heavenly creation!:grin:
Show your Roman artwork - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-09-2013
Quote:Rennie post=344842 Wrote:Also I uploaded a picture of a Numerus and a Centinarius, to what unit may that shield belong, it's text says that it was found on a mural in sicily.Just to clarify, a 'numerus' is not a soldier but a unit type of unspecified size (pl. numeri). The soldier in Graham Sumners painting is a 'member of an unspecified numerus', not a numerus himself.
The 'centinarius' should be 'centenarius', the late Roman version of the centurio in the new style units from Diocletian onwards.
Well Centenarius only occurs in Limitanei. In the Comitatenses and Palatina the title was Ordinarius.
Show your Roman artwork - Robert Vermaat - 10-09-2013
Quote:Robert Vermaat post=345055 Wrote:The 'centinarius' should be 'centenarius', the late Roman version of the centurio in the new style units from Diocletian onwards.Well Centenarius only occurs in Limitanei. In the Comitatenses and Palatina the title was Ordinarius.
You may well be right there. :-) Anyway, my point was more about the spelling.
Show your Roman artwork - Nathan Ross - 10-09-2013
Quote:You may well be right there.
Not necessarily! There are a few centenarii among the field army troops at the cemetery at Concordia (e.g. AE 2010, 00533: Fl(avius) DiocIes centenarius n(umeri) (Hi?)b(er)orum auxili p(a)l(atini), or CIL 05, 08758: Fl(avius) Roveos centenarius de equitum comitum seni(orum) sagit(tariorum) ).
There's also one inscription (AE 1989, 00641) that has a centenarius and a centurio ordinarius serving in the same unit, I Iovia Scythica. So apparently, and confusingly, they were different grades within the same military hierarchy...
Show your Roman artwork - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-09-2013
If they were different grades within the military heirarchy, maybe the Ordinarius was like a primus pilus in some instances?
Show your Roman artwork - Nathan Ross - 10-09-2013
Quote:maybe the Ordinarius was like a primus pilus in some instances?
Something for a different thread, I think? ;-) (pretty sure we've discussed it before though - do a search?)
Show your Roman artwork - Graham Sumner - 10-09-2013
Mr.Sumner you are a Godlike person
Many thanks for the compliment. However if I was a godlike person I would not have suffered from the many medical complaints which have dogged me this year and delayed a number of paintings. Furthermore I would paint like Fortunino Matania, Robert Griffing or Howard Terpning. Google Images and enjoy!!!
In the meantime I hope you will continue to enjoy my best efforts.
Graham.
Show your Roman artwork - Robert Vermaat - 10-11-2013
Quote:So apparently, and confusingly, they were different grades within the same military hierarchy...Don't you just love (Late) Roman military terminology?
Show your Roman artwork - Robert Vermaat - 10-11-2013
Quote:Mr.Sumner you are a Godlike person
Many thanks for the compliment. However if I was a godlike person I would not have suffered from the many medical complaints which have dogged me this year and delayed a number of paintings.
Maybe you're one of the Old Gods Graham? :whistle: