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+--- Thread: Late roman lorica hamata? (/showthread.php?tid=21907)
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Late roman lorica hamata? - Virilis - 12-14-2012
Hi there!
It seems that a Lorica Hamata is not very fashionable amongst late roman re-enactors (4-6th AD) anymore? Is it because it weighs so much (being long-sleeved & knee-length) and difficult to wear and make (alternate butted and riveted rings being usually diameter of 6mm)? Any opinions on this? I just realized that I don't see many hamatas nowadays in this context...
Late roman lorica hamata? - Kai - 12-16-2012
I think that is an interesting question and certainly the points you raise are valid, especially the price tag, but I would think of a more basic reason: the Rule of Cool.
It seems lamellar and to a lesser degree scale armour is extremely fashionable nowadays. And it is not only late Romans: even Viking reenactors overuse the lamellar armour despite rather limited evidence for its use (or: evidence suggesting rather limited use). In a Total War-mod I am working with, the users and developers are extremely biased towards lamellar persisting it being super superior to mail.
I do not know why this is. Maybe it has something to do with the aesthetics of modern soldiers wearing ballistic vests which cover the torso. A lamellar cuirass can give a similar appearence, sleeved mail can't. Maybe it looks more ancient than the 'medieval looking' mail. And maybe there is a general anti-western/catholic bias, mail being perceived as used by the western barbarians/ catholic fanatics (this is definetly the case with the modders I mentioned before; they think lamellar was the preferred armour of the Byzantines thus it must have been better/cooler. Also there is a strong, romantic pagan element in Viking reenactment).
That being said, I also own a scale armour cuirass.
Late roman lorica hamata? - M. Val. Naso - 12-16-2012
In a pragmatical context, mail is the heaviest, yet least usable armour. In a weight (burden) to defense rating ratio, hamata is at the end of the line. No wonder europeans stopped using it as fast as they could in the middle ages.
A tightly packed gambeson gives you almost the same defense for tenth of the weight and manufacturing time.
I do not wonder romans did not/do not want to wear it...
Late roman lorica hamata? - Virilis - 12-16-2012
Good points, guys!
Kai, the aesthetic aspect is very plausible. A long hamata covers so much space that it is not possible to "show off" with your tunics with fancy orbiculi etc. Mark, romans used extensively hamatas during different periods and it surely gives a good protection especially against slashing attacks. Anyway, nice to eventually have a debate on this topic :grin: ...
Late roman lorica hamata? - Dan Howard - 12-17-2012
Quote:In a pragmatical context, mail is the heaviest, yet least usable armour. In a weight (burden) to defense rating ratio, hamata is at the end of the line.Butted mail is pretty heavy. Romans didn't wear butted mail. Riveted mail is a lot lighter and provides far better protection than many assume.
Quote:No wonder europeans stopped using it as fast as they could in the middle ages.Mail saw continuous use right throughout the Middle Ages and continued to be worn even after it cost more than plate.
Order of protection, assuming that all are of equal weight would be something like:
solid plate
segmented plate
lamellar
scale
The problem with using mail in re-enacting is that a good replica of properly-riveted mail costs a fortune. The imported Indian mail on the market doesn't look like historical mail (it looks like soda can ring tabs) and offers pretty poor protection against points. Butted mail looks more like Roman armour but is heavier and provides even less protection against points.
These might help
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
Late roman lorica hamata? - daryush - 12-17-2012
Quote:. Butted mail looks more like Roman armour
Thanks - but I am a bit confused by this point. Wouldn't poorly riveted Indian mail be / look closer to original mail than butted mail, which AFAIK wasn't used at this period?
Late roman lorica hamata? - Dan Howard - 12-17-2012
You haven't read this.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
You have to get pretty close just to tell whether proper mail is even riveted or not. At a distance butted mail looks pretty good. The Indian mail looks terrible no matter how close you are. Modern riveted links make the armour look as though it was made from soda can ring tabs - nothing at all like museum examples. The movie industry is starting to use mail made from PVC plastic and even this looks better than the Indian riveted mail.
Personally I'd prefer to see butted mail being worn by reenactors and the cheap riveted mail reserved for WMA fighers who need the reduced weight and extra protection.
Late roman lorica hamata? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-17-2012
Virilis! I'm deeply offended! :wink:
I use mail for my late period impression!
I am not a follower of fashion, I prefer the functional grittiness
Of mail!
And Dan, butted looks like shit, no matter how far away you are!
The Indian looks far better even up close !
Late roman lorica hamata? - Virilis - 12-17-2012
Hi Byron! In fact I would like to see more late roman re-enactors wearing long hamatas. It is a cool-looking "no bull" armour
...
Late roman lorica hamata? - Dan Howard - 12-17-2012
Real Roman mail doesn't have the exaggerated flattened area for the rivet - no historical mail has this. Even on tv this is easy to spot and is glaringly wrong. It looks just like soda can ring tabs. Butted mail doesn't have this problem and you can't even tell that there are no rivets until you get a lot closer.
Late roman lorica hamata? - Robert Vermaat - 12-17-2012
Quote:It seems that a Lorica Hamata is not very fashionable amongst late roman re-enactors (4-6th AD) anymore? Is it because it weighs so much (being long-sleeved & knee-length) and difficult to wear and make (alternate butted and riveted rings being usually diameter of 6mm)? Any opinions on this? I just realized that I don't see many hamatas nowadays in this context...A number of reasons. I started out with a hamata, but I was one of the first to go for a squamata I think (following Alain Alexandra of the Foederati). I've worn a squamata ever since because
- I made it myself
- it's lighter
- it's far more compfortable around the neck/shoulders as a result
- it's easier to get on
- it looks better
- I can combine it with a subarmalis which makes me look more 'Roman' (which I did on purpose after years of being called a Viking).
- it's easier on the clothing
Late roman lorica hamata? - Robert Vermaat - 12-17-2012
Quote:Hi Byron! In fact I would like to see more late roman re-enactors wearing long hamatas. It is a cool-looking "no bull" armourHow's your musculata coming on? :whistle:
Late roman lorica hamata? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-17-2012
I'm afraid I disagree on that dan! You have to get quite close to notice the flattened
Part, whereas the fact that the rings are butted is quite obvious from
Quite some way due to the same ness of the rings!
Late roman lorica hamata? - Robert Vermaat - 12-17-2012
Quote:I'm afraid I disagree on that dan! You have to get quite close to notice the flattened part, whereas the fact that the rings are butted is quite obvious from quite some way due to the same ness of the rings!I think Dan refers to some of the riveted mail currently for sale, which indeed can show very 'large' flattened parts, and don't look good. Indeed, Roman mail had alternating butted and riveted rings, if I'm correct.
Late roman lorica hamata? - Virilis - 12-17-2012
Quote:Virilis post=326685 Wrote:Hi Byron! In fact I would like to see more late roman re-enactors wearing long hamatas. It is a cool-looking "no bull" armourHow's your musculata coming on? :whistle:
Robert, the last time the musculata was seen in the Paradise Islands with my spatha drinking Pina Coladas :lol: ...