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+--- Thread: Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? (/showthread.php?tid=23877)
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Caballo - 05-31-2014
"An important – and I believe crucial – consideration that tends to get overlooked is that of peripheral vision. Helmets with some form of face-mask, such as Viking or Saxon examples, or even Corinthian helmets from the Classical Greek period, typically incorporate eye apertures that allowed for the largest possible field of view for the wearer. Cavalry sports helmets, on the other hand, by seeking to imitate the human eye, deliberately limited the field of view."
Interesting comparison with later and earlier periods- but I would respectfully disagree as it omits the numerous examples from the Middle Ages where the slit for vision is far more restricted.
Here, one of my favourites from the Wallace Collection ( I was very impressed by this one when my father first took me round as an 8 year old)
![[Image: knight-and-horse.jpg]](http://r2adventures.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/knight-and-horse.jpg)
There is pictorial evidence that restricted vision helmets were used in combat, e.g.
![[Image: mac10vA.jpg]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9SAeZNAGOno/TrfMn_A3LDI/AAAAAAAAAFw/tzfv0FQLHGo/s1600/mac10vA.jpg)
Secondly, peripheral vision on a face mask can be radically improved by a tailored mask that fits flush on the face- as per the Arrian quote mentioned earlier "Arrian, Techne taktika 34.3 ('Unlike battle helmets, these defend not only the head and cheeks but, conforming to the faces of the riders, have openings for the eyes which do not hinder the vision and yet offer protection.') . If there is a better translation, it would be great to read it , btw.
Thirdly, sculptural evidence ( with all the imperfections of this evidence) of face masks being used in battle exists- notably the Genialis stele from Cirencester.
![[Image: 5863645607_2615290618_z.jpg]](https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5231/5863645607_2615290618_z.jpg)
Finally, Mike's argument that Amminanus would not have described the face masks of Persian cavalry had the Romans possessed them doesn't really stack up as Ammianus describes other items of equipment used by foreigners also used by Romans. ( Separately, can I check the reference given by Urselius - Ammianus 25.1- not sure which edition you are using ?).
Finally, the sheer quantity of "sports helmets" is odd when contrasted to the " combat helmets".
So overall, is the evidence in favour of face masks not being worn in battle? My view ( for what it's worth) is that the overall evidence points towards face masks perhaps being worn in battle. But certainly no overwhelming case either way.
Cheers
Paul ( feeling rather testy with gout at the moment)
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - PhilusEstilius - 05-31-2014
The point of so many cavalry sports helmets and face masks that have survived might just be as I have said earlier, that these very fine pieces of expensive equipment were indeed protected and kept only for special situations of the Hippika Gymnasia and not for battle at all.
There are however exceptions such as those similar to the Kalkreise and the Vechten and others that are even cast pieces that may have been worn by standard bearers in battle situations.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Alanus - 06-01-2014
Do hockey goalies have trouble seeing a 2 1/2 inch puck flying toward them?-- or is their eyesight behind a face-mask keen enough to enable them to help win games? 8-)
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - PhilusEstilius - 06-01-2014
Alan.
I wonder just what the situation would be should such a goal keeper be hit in the face by the 2 1/2 inch puck coming at him at great speed.
This is very much like an earlier post where I mention a cavalryman being hit hard in the face mask in battle, for most of these things were indeed fitted to the helmet with a metal hinge therefore he may just have had to throw the whole helmet away then that becomes a very poor situation of protection.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Urselius - 06-01-2014
But that argument would hold true for all cheekpieces attached by hinges, and I don't think that their utility in protecting the face has ever been seriously challenged. A piece of armour does not have to be capable of surviving a "worst case scenario" for it to be useful. Something capable of protecting from long-range archery is useful, even if it would not survive being hit by a pickaxe.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - PhilusEstilius - 06-01-2014
Martin.
I can't see how your argument about cheek pieces compares at all to a face mask and indeed should a cheek piece become damaged ( such as the left one on the Gallic D helmet was ) the chin tie can be undone which would relieve any pressure against the face. Where with a face mask that has recieved battle damage it cannot be held against a face any more therefore of no use what ever for the rest of a battle, in fact because of its hinge the complete helmet along with its mask would need to be removed.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Renatus - 06-01-2014
If the mask was damaged to that extent, I wouldn't hold out much hope for the face behind it.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Alanus - 06-02-2014
IF a cavalryman could survive getting hit in the facemask, I would think he could grab the mask and rip it from the hinge, essentially breaking the hinge. I know I could tear a cheek piece from any one of my helmets... and I'm not very rugged, and also an old man.
But frankly, anyone wearing a facemask into battle had to be a lot like the spoiled son of Arthur in the film Excalibur. I'd chuck hockey pucks at that little creep's face mask all day long. ;-)
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - PhilusEstilius - 06-02-2014
Alan.
I can understand your wanting to throw pucks all day however I don't want to sound over rude but who the heck made your helmets, but then I am also an old man who used to make what I like to consider good helmets.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Alanus - 06-05-2014
Quote:Alan.
I mention a cavalryman being hit hard in the face mask in battle, for most of these things were indeed fitted to the helmet with a metal hinge therefore he may just have had to throw the whole helmet away then that becomes a very poor situation of protection.
Throw away a good expensive helmet? I don't think so! Rather, I maintain that anyone fit enough to ride into battle had the strength to rip off the damaged face-mask or cheek piece. I mention a cheek-piece, and I know I can remove it by yanking it up and outward, breaking the hinge, then twisting it enough to remove it. Here's my helmet:
[attachment=10089]roxolanihelmetdetails030.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=10090]roxolanihelmetdetails007.JPG[/attachment]
It was made by Grezgorz Kulig, one of Europe's finest craftsmen who makes them the "old fashioned" way... perhaps just like yourself. It's substantial, about 8 pounds, and fashioned with fine attention to detail. YET!-- I know that, if I wanted to, I could rip either or both cheek-pieces from it, salvaging the helmet and using it for the rest of the battle... which could only be a few hours in length.
Many posters on RAT seem to have a vague outlook on actuality. Battles were not long. Armor was heavy, pilums were sharp, and arrows were speedy demons. I simply used a "hocky puck" as an arrow-like analogy. You know, like metaphor? A helmet was and is a very expensive item, and only a brain-damaged cavarlyman would toss it away. 8+)
As for the real subject-- I'm not saying that wearing a face-mask into battle was an impossibility, but I think it was a rarity. When several show up within the archaeological strata of an ancient battle-site, then I'll change my mind. At the moment, I agree with Mike Bishop.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - PhilusEstilius - 06-06-2014
Alan.
That was just a little humour on my part but no disrespect to your helmet indeed it does look to be a fine piece of workmanship, and as you say a very fine and expensive helmet might not have been thrown away for most cavalry sports were very fine objects.
Then of course many were also very delicate pieces of equipment that would never have been used on any battle field, and the reasons there are so many to be seen today might indicate the very good care taken with them.
The odd face mask here and there for a standard bearer maybe but not cavalry sports they were not created for such rough use.
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Alanus - 06-06-2014
Brian,
Actually, then, we do agree on some points. My helmet is a "plain brown shoe" compared to your artwork, but it's pragmatic with simple lines. Don't know why it peaks as high as it does, but it's possible the Roxolani wore top-knots much like the Chinese.
mile:
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Michael Kerr - 06-06-2014
Alanus wrote:
Quote:Don't know why it peaks as high as it does, but it's possible the Roxolani wore top-knots much like the Chinese.
Just slightly off topic but maybe your original spangels were designed for skulls like this as the Eastern Alans practised cranial deformation. Don't know about the more western Roxolani though. You would have trouble fitting a normal bowl type helmet on that head. :wink:
[attachment=10094]Cranialdeformation.jpg[/attachment]
Image taken from a French publication 'Les Alains' by Vladimir Kouznetsov and Iaroslav Lebedynsky
Regards
Michael Kerr
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Alanus - 06-06-2014
An Alan's deformed skull has been found in Frankish Gaul. Also the Sarmats practiced cranial deformation. I thought of that but, like you, considered the Roxolani as too Western or at least not so much influenced by the Huns.
mile:
Did Roman cavalry wear face-masks in battle? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-14-2014
The facemasks would obviously have protected the wearer. The ones on the Kops plateau were metallurgicaly examined I believe.
and were shown to be of armour quality construction. I seriously doubt they would beany more phased by someone throwing pucks at hem than a medieval knight. And I imagine it would earn you a place as their next target.
