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Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 10-24-2014 Hi all, While reading Siege Warfare and Military Organization in the Successor States, I found out an interesting idea that Romans may independently invent traction trebuchet. What is your opinion about it? Here the related part; Quote:Beyond what may be dubbed the current consensus of an introduction around 580, there also seems to be hard evidence of the existence of the trebuchet even before this. Joshua the Stylite described a huge engine used by the Amidenes (*Amida 502f) to lob vast stones, crushing the protective padding the Persians had placed over their siege mound and in the process killing the engineers working on it. It was, fittingly enough, named “the Crusher.” The practice of naming large individual trebuchets became common later; many great trebuchets received poetic names due to their immense power. The custom can be dated to *Theodosiopolis in 421/2, where Theodoret describes a huge stone-thrower, named after the apostle Thomas, used against the Persians. Too little is recorded of its effects and use to be certain, but taken with the evidence from Epiphanius, this may be the first recorded instance of such a weapon. Trebuchet and Romans - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-24-2014 I think it's more likely that they just built a really big onager. But nevertheless, very interesting post! IIRC there's some thought that in Jordanes that some of the "machines" Attila brought to bear against Aquileia were Traction Trebuchets but there's a lot of variables to account for when translating that passage. Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 10-24-2014 Interesting indeed. I can't locate now but I remember reading about "The Crusher" and it was interpreted as a large crane used to release huge boulders over Persian siege works. Also, that "wooden tower" could actually be the base of crane too. Such vague descriptions are prone to different interpretations thus we need some special aid here. Trebuchet and Romans - Robert - 10-24-2014 Looking at the mechanics of both the onager and the trebuchet, the later is far more fitting to lob large stones then the former. The trebuchet's immense power is based on two principles, one being the use of gravity to propel the heavy counterweight, the other the long arm and sling, providing a very effective lever mechanism, which generates far greater power then a torsion wound siege engine ever can. It is plain, simple physics. Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 10-24-2014 It looks simple and plain but it is not Robert. During early ages trebuchets were powered by a crew of pullers. Team hauls the opposite site of throwing arm thus causing sling fling and cast missile. Such machines are used to create a covering fire for attacking side, preventing defenders rising their heads. Much powerful type, counter weight trebuchets that capable of crushing defenses and siege works were invented somewhere around 12th century. Another point is the word used for traction trebuchet, manganon, also used to for construction devices consist of levers and pulleys which could be interpreted as a crane as I mentioned earlier. Trebuchet and Romans - Robert - 10-24-2014 Ah, OK, well, I have fired those in France. Good fun, too! And it lobs a hefty stone a good distance, even with only about 6 guys manning it. From my observation, to hurl a stone requires explosive power, so pulleys are more or less out. A crane would have to have a very long boom to drop a rock on any defensive position (the construction of such a thing near the enemy positions looks like suicide), so I like your idea of the early use of the traction trebuchet. I wonder if you could calculate the amount of force 20 or so pullers could exert on the boom. Also, we need to look into the advantage gained using one. I can think of the firing rate being a good bit higher, as there is no need to crank the machine to a working torsion. Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 10-26-2014 Yes, you are absolutely right about quick firing specialty of traction trebuchet. Even with inexperienced team of pullers it is possible to cast 4 shots in a minute. Thus, such high rate of fire was quite beneficial for attackers since defenders could not raise their heads under barrage of missiles. Above examples differs from this type of trebuchets by the power factor. First trebuchets were not capable of casting huge missiles that crushes siege works. This make me to think that forementioned examples are rather large cranes used to release boulders over nearby enemy siege engines. Here another passage from same book examining the case from philological aspect; The word manganon (μάγγανον) is fundamental to understanding the diffusion of the traction trebuchet. In classical Greek denoting “magic” or a “trick,” this semantic meaning passed to the derivations manganeia (μαγγανεία), which is frequently used in ecclesiastical writers to denote the trickery or wiles of the devil, and manganeuō (μαγγανεύω, verb) or manganeuma (μαγγάνευμα, noun), which is often used for more simple trickery or quackery. The term manganon however became applied to lever-machines that were able to shift very large weights (thus appearing “magical” or at least clever) and used for several purposes. In the 1st century, Heron of Alexandria used the term as an element in a pulley system to operate other types of engines,17 but it was also associated with construction (since it was used of technology employed to operate cranes) and the mechanical opening of doors. A 5th-century hagiography records the use of such lever-machines (mangana) to tear the flesh of St. Euphemia with the aid of four stones as counterweights. As early as the 4th century, mangana were associated with warfare: Epiphanius, a late 4th-century ecclesiastical historian, elaborates on how Joshua captured Jericho when “there were neither engines nor mangana, no rams, no helepoleis, but [nonetheless] the sound of the horn trumpet alone” brought down the walls. He also used the word in adjectival form, manganika: thus μαγγανικαῖς μηχανίαις, but here with its meaning of magic tricks.20 In the late 6th century Strategikon, there were still two uses of manganon: one for the war machine (alternating with petrobolos; cf. 8.2.3), and one for a counterweight-operated construction engine that had been adopted for wall defense by dropping heavy objects (stones, sharpened logsand the like) which were then pulled up again with the counterweight. After c. 600, the adjectival form (neuter plural) manganika became common for the traction trebuchet. Originally, this would have been used with a word such as mekhanemata or organa, but in most instances it occurs alone. It appears thus in a number of sources, beginning with Miracula sancti Demetrii on the siege of *Thessalonica (618) and Chronicon Paschale on *Constantinople (626), where the description of the engines in use leaves no room for doubt.22 Based on these descriptions and alternation with other terms whose meaning is secured (see 8.2.3 below), it is clearly a stone-throwing machine operated by lever power and not used in any other sense in this period. Trebuchet and Romans - Robert - 10-26-2014 Ah right! BUT .... that crane would have to be VERY close to the defence to be able to drop a rock on it ... Wood burns and firearrows were well known. Interestingly, this last portion of tekst deals with the use of counterweights, which is what powers a later trebuchet. Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 10-26-2014 To counter the fire weapons of defenders, such machines were covered by skins of freshly slain cow or sheep. To tear this protective cover, sharpened beams were released from above and in this case they are pulled back with counterweights in order to use again and again.Other method was to drop a huge rock to crush entire structure with it's crew inside. Here a medieval manuscript image clearly pictures such operation. (Except there is no winch to pull back thrown objects) Trebuchet and Romans - Koyuncu - 11-06-2014 In my humble opinion, such a resemblance cannot be explained with independent invention. There is indeed a connection but we need more evidence for support. |