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Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Pappa Gus - 01-09-2015
Good evening gentlemen,
I was just able to squeeze my question into the Subject line but I feel my questions may be a bit vague to some of you. I will try and be specific and provide my sources. Feel free to answer a question or two. What ever your area of expertise is in. 8+)
First let me begin with some context, according to MappingHistory "For two centuries following the death of Augustus (AD 14-235), the Mediterranean world experienced a singular period of peace and stability. Thereafter (AD 235-285), internal conflicts and foreign invasions overwhelmed and nearly destroyed the Empire." it was a time of great instability and general fear for the Roman people. I present an image of the divided empire in 271 AD.
[attachment=11487]AncientRome271AD.png[/attachment]
The Gallic empire was a breakaway area founded by Postumus in 260AD that incorporated Gaul, Britannia and some areas of Germania.. It even covered Hispana at its height. It also produced its own coinage in an effort to state their sovereignty over the Roman Empire. It was retaken by the Romans under Aurelian in 274AD.
Galic Empire coinage
[attachment=11488]Galliccoins.jpg[/attachment]
QUESTIONS:
1. Did Postumus & his followers revolt because of Rome's inability to protect them during the barbarian invasions? Or was it out of greed and power? Or both?
2. With the growing dangers of trade between the provinces and Rome, did this danger help contribute to the extended economic deppresion of the crisis?
3. Why were their so many emperors?!
By the way, this is a daft and I am new to the subject. if any information is incorrect, feel free to inform me.
Thank you all for reading my post. 'Thank you's' will be awarded!
Augustine
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Sextus Saturninus - 01-10-2015
Augustine,
To answer your questions, I am posting here.
Question #1:
Postumus and his followers revolted because they had recently defeated a large force of Juthungians and had captured much booty. Saloninus told Postumus to give the booty to the emperor but Postumus refused, instead giving his soldiers the chance to revolt and gave the booty to them. So it was for greed as well as for power.
Question #2:
The Economic Crisis of this time was largely caused by many factors including debasement of the currency, constant invasions, and many more reasons. Trade continued to the Gallic Empire, so the effects were not crushing.
Question #3:
There were so many emperors because it was not the emperors who were the real power: it was the praetorian guard and the soldiers. They elevated and executed emperors at will, and the only way for an emperor to secure his position was to keep the soldiers happy.
Hope this helps, Jason.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Nathan Ross - 01-10-2015
Quote:Did Postumus & his followers revolt because of Rome's inability to protect them during the barbarian invasions? Or was it out of greed and power? Or both?... With the growing dangers of trade between the provinces and Rome, did this danger help contribute to the extended economic deppresion of the crisis?... Why were their so many emperors?!
These are some big questions (and interconnected, of course), and they're difficult to answer as our sources for the period are fairly scrappy. Nevertheless, I'll try and put down a few thoughts that might lead to better answers or debate from others.
Postumus certainly seems to have promoted himself as a protector of the west - doing what the central government could not do - with his coin slogans of 'Restorer of Gaul' and 'Saviour of the Provinces'. It seems likely that he did (even if briefly) manage to contain the barbarian attacks on the Rhine frontier. But I suspect the reasons for his power bid, and its success, run more deeply.
By the later second century (or so) the process of Romanisation in the provinces of the empire had reached a sort of watershed. Infrastructure and urbanisation, trade networks, military deployment and economics were by that time fairly standard across the empire. There was little reason now for the provinces to defer to Rome, or look naturally to Italy for guidance in the maintenance of civilisation.
Coupled with this, imperial power itself had become decentralised. Since Hadrian, emperors had become peripatetic, travelling with their mobile courts around the provinces. There were exceptions (Antoninus Pius, for example), but the citizens of the empire were perhaps far less likely to equate the city of Rome with the centre of imperial power. The rise of the Severan dynasty - with its strong links with the African and Syrian aristocracies - had further widened the breach between imperial power and the urbs itself.
It's probably no coincidence that the reign of Valerian - another very mobile emperor! - also seems to have seen the first concerted efforts to shut the traditional senatorial elite out of military command. From Valerian onwards we see the rise of a new military cadre, based ultimately on the centurionate and loyal to the figure of the emperor himself rather than the traditional structures of senatorial power.
At the same time, the various barbarian peoples immediately outside the empire seem to have acquired a new cohesion and a sort of collective identity (at least in Rome eyes) - much larger groups like the Franks, Goths and Alamanni, capable of more concerted attacks deep inside the Roman frontiers. The massive defeats of mid century - Abrittus, and the capture of Valerian - further stretched the abilities of Roman central command to respond adequately to diverse barbarian attack and pressure from the resurgent Sassanid Persians.
Postumus was probably a Batavian, but his power base was in the western army and the Gallic aristocracy: his co-emperors and successors, Victorinus and Tetricus, were both Gallic landowners and senators. It's possible that the western senatorial aristocracy had been feeling marginalised since the Severans - many of their families may have backed Clodius Albinus back in AD195. This same sense of regional identification was at work in the east too, where many Roman officials seem to have initially supported Odenathus of Palmyra.
Quite what effect Postumus's usurption had on the economic prosperity of the west is probably impossible to judge. The Gallic provinces suffered greatly in the third century, if the amount of deserted agricultural land and abandoned villas by the end of the century is any evidence. How much of this was caused by Postumus and how much happened after him is hard to say.
However, the problem with a successful usurption is that it opens the door to further usurpers. Postumus seems to have been just as plagued by rivals as the central emperors, if not more so. Interestingly, two of these rivals - Laelianus and Marius - came specifically from the army. Marius was apparently a 'common soldier', whatever that might mean. Perhaps he was one of the able centurions that Valerian and Gallienus seemed keen to promote, and a precursor to the very effective 'barrack emperors' that followed.
Either way, with the emergence of Aurelian and the defeat of the Palmyrenes, it must have become clear to many in the west that their attempt at self-rule could not last, and would only further weaken their ability to defend themselves against the threat from across the Rhine. Tetricus, the last Gallic emperor, surrendered in a deal with Aurelian, leaving his army to die in his name...
(I should add that most of the above is drawing rather vaguely on the earlier chapters of David Potter's The Roman Empire at Bay, and the relevant bits of The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 12: The Crisis of Empire, amongst other things... but I haven't looked back at them to check references...)
(p.p.s. I should mention that the above is probably quite a traditionalist view - there's a strand in recent scholarship that downplays the severity of the 'crisis', particularly in its effects on the prosperity of the provinces. I'm not sure about that - but that's for a wider discussion, maybe...)
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Pappa Gus - 01-10-2015
Quote:Augustine,
To answer your questions, I am posting here.
Question #1:
Postumus and his followers revolted because they had recently defeated a large force of Juthungians and had captured much booty. Saloninus told Postumus to give the booty to the emperor but Postumus refused, instead giving his soldiers the chance to revolt and gave the booty to them. So it was for greed as well as for power.
Question #2:
The Economic Crisis of this time was largely caused by many factors including debasement of the currency, constant invasions, and many more reasons. Trade continued to the Gallic Empire, so the effects were not crushing.
Question #3:
There were so many emperors because it was not the emperors who were the real power: it was the praetorian guard and the soldiers. They elevated and executed emperors at will, and the only way for an emperor to secure his position was to keep the soldiers happy.
Hope this helps, Jason.
Hey Jason, thanks for replying to my thread.
I assume Postumus was of Germanic origin? It doesn't surprise me that one such as himself would revolt for 'booty' as you say. Did Postumus bring any innovations to the region on an administrative level before Aurelian's arrival?
It troubles me to hear of the Praetorian Guard and their power. How did it become like this? Who was keeping the empire running then? I never heard of this ordeal happening in Rome before but it seems fascinating.
Augustine
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Pappa Gus - 01-10-2015
Hey Nathan, thank you for the incredibly meaty reply! :grin:
I just have a few questions about your hypothesis for clarity as I am a beginner on the topic.
I. What is a Batavian? I assume Postumus was of Germanic origin as his motives were sort of centered around 'booty' as Jason stated. (although when I write this, I feel my view may be a bit prejudice)
II. How does the rise of the Severan dynasty have an effect on imperial power and 'decentralization'?
III. What is your personal take on Postumus?
IV. As you said in P.P.S. section, Was there any severe economic depression in Greece? I read in an article which I cannot cite as I've forgotten it. There was a decreased demand of the 'city' in Roman Greece in particular. Which resembles around 250 years later than the present topic when people left the cities to more rural towns for safety and financial security.
I greatly appreciate the in-depth & extensive answers to my questions Nathan. Commendable:!:
Augustine
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Timianus - 01-10-2015
Regarding "booty"...I have read that it was often the only real "take home" pay soldiers received, especially in times of crisis. Not all usurpation were caused by"greed"; many were due to the inability of the central government to timely respond to external threats. ..."self help" so to speak.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Pappa Gus - 01-10-2015
Quote:Regarding "booty"...I have read that it was often the only real "take home" pay soldiers received, especially in times of crisis. Not all usurpation were caused by"greed"; many were due to the inability of the central government to timely respond to external threats. ..."self help" so to speak.
Hey Tim,
That is a really interesting statement. Although I am positive Roman legions were paid a sort of wage. In fact, I think for a period of time, all loot was confiscated from soldiers until they protested they should have booty rights? (lol ;-) )
What is your take?
Augustine
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Nathan Ross - 01-10-2015
Augustine - the thread might be more concise if you cut down the amount that you quote of other people's replies. Just a line or two is fine - you don't need to repeat the whole thing!
Quote:What is a Batavian?
Batavia was the area around the mouth of the Rhine, a source of Roman auxiliary soldiers for centuries. This identification is only based on some coin issues though, which may have been intended to appeal to Batavians rather than indicating Postumus's own origin! We actually know very little about many of the personalities of the third century.
Quote:his motives were sort of centered around 'booty'
I'm not sure if you might be confusing Postumus with Carausius here, a later Gallic usurper who was sent off to quell pirates and allegedly kept their loot to pay his troops... If Postumus did seize the loot of (for example) Germanic raiders returning across the Rhine or Danube, he probably used it to pay his soldiers rather than keeping it himself. Soldiers were paid (and paid well), but it was often in arrears in this period, and a new emperor would award hefty donatives to the legions: another incentive for them to keep appointing new emperors!
Another point about the army - soldiers by this date had families, and had put down roots in their garrison areas. The soldiers of the Rhine army may have been more inclined to support a local emperor, rather than a central command that might order them to the Danube or the eastern frontier to prop up the crumbling military situation there. This in turn would leave the Rhine less heavily defended, threaten the soldiers' homes, and threaten Gaul itself.
Quote:How does the rise of the Severan dynasty have an effect on imperial power and 'decentralization'?
This is debatable, but Severus was from Africa (Carthaginian background) and his wife Julia Domna from Syria. His administration appears to have favoured men from those backgrounds, in preference to westerners. The Syrian connection became even stronger under Caracalla, Elagabalus and Severus Alexander. Whether we can see the whole imperial axis shifting eastwards I don't know, but we don't hear much of the western aristocracy during this period.
Quote:What is your personal take on Postumus?
I really couldn't say! He was presumably charismatic or effective enough for the army and people of Gaul to support him though...
Quote:Was there any severe economic depression in Greece?
Again, not sure. There does seem to have been trouble in the cities of Greece, as elsewhere - we see a lot of wall-building in the third century, particularly rough walls using spolia from older buildings, and this suggests a certain level of threat that might lead to economic problems. There are many similarities between the third and fifth century - I've often though that one of the best ways to consider the collapse of the western empire in the fifth century is to wonder why it didn't collapse in the third!
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Pappa Gus - 01-10-2015
Quote:Augustine - the thread might be more concise if you cut down the amount that you quote of other people's replies. Just a line or two is fine - you don't need to repeat the whole thing!
Thanks Nathan, I appreciate the advice sir. My apologies for the full text in a quote. I learned how to do it.
Quote: Batavia was the area around the mouth of the Rhine, a source of Roman auxiliary soldiers for centuries.
That is a very practical point you made about Batavians as they wouldn't generally have Roman citizenship. How come Auxillias were for subjects without it?
Quote:I'm not sure if you might be confusing Postumus with Carausius here,
Actually, I haven't heard of the gentlemen you described. Haha I just thought since if Postumus was Germanic, to my knowledge, Germanic warriors in the Roman Army were generally loyal to their commanders and gold rather than to the emperor of Rome itself. Although in this case, I don't think they are related to the situation we are talking about.
Quote:This is debatable, but Severus was from Africa (Carthaginian background) and his wife Julia Domna from Syria. His administration appears to have favoured men from those backgrounds, in preference to westerners. The Syrian connection became even stronger under Caracalla, Elagabalus and Severus Alexander. Whether we can see the whole imperial axis shifting eastwards I don't know, but we don't hear much of the western aristocracy during this period.
Interesting take Nathan.
Quote: Again, not sure. There does seem to have been trouble in the cities of Greece, as elsewhere - we see a lot of wall-building in the third century, particularly rough walls using spolia from older buildings, and this suggests a certain level of threat that might lead to economic problems. There are many similarities between the third and fifth century - I've often though that one of the best ways to consider the collapse of the western empire in the fifth century is to wonder why it didn't collapse in the third!
haha indeed friend! I like that phrase you mentioned.
Just wanted to give you my thanks for your effort in your posts Nathan. If I am frustrating you with the questions, just give the word and I'll stop. lol :wink:
(PS. How did Postumus die? The most reliable source I have encountered simply states 'died in an altercation with his own troops.' is there any more to this or did he just manage to provoke his soldiers beyond limit. (which to me seems unlikely) )
Augustine
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Sextus Saturninus - 01-10-2015
Augustine, Postumus was killed by his own soldiers. He captured a city held by an usurper, Laelianus, and broke through the walls. He killed the enemy leaders but did not want his soldiers to sack the town of Moguntiacum though the soldiers wanted to sack it so the soldiers attacked the emperor and stabbed him to death. Then they elevated Marius to the position of emperor.
On the Praetorian guard:
They reached the power that they had in the third century because the emperors kept on bribing the Praetorians to make them emperor or to murder the current emperor, etc. After awhile, the Praetorians got the idea that they, along with the soldiers, were the real source of power. After that, the emperor's reign and longevity was decided by the Praetorians.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Nathan Ross - 01-10-2015
Quote:Batavians... wouldn't generally have Roman citizenship.
Caracalla's edict of AD212, called the Constitutio Antoniniana, gave Roman citizenship to everyone in the empire (mainly for taxation purposes). This would have included the Batavians, and many others who had traditionally served as non-citizen auxiliaries.
Quote:How did Postumus die?
Reports are mixed. The Historia Augusta (a late 4th century mix of fact and fiction) says that:
Great, indeed, was the love felt for Postumus in the hearts of all the people of Gaul because he had thrust back all the German tribes and had restored the Roman Empire to its former security. But when he began to conduct himself with the greatest sternness, the Gauls, following their custom of always desiring a change of government,at the instigation of Lollianus [i.e. Laelianus) put him to death. (HA. XXX Pretenders, 6.3)
Aurelius Victor (de Caesaribus, 33,9-11) claims instead that Postumus defeated and killed the usurper Laelianus near Mainz, but was then killed by his soldiers after he refused to let them sack the city. The truth could be either, or anywhere between the two.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Sextus Saturninus - 01-10-2015
I think the Aurelius Victor account is more truthful. Historia Augusta is known to make some things up, so Aurelius Victor is probably the way to go.
P.S. Nathan, Thanks for the acknowledgment in the edit.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Vindex - 01-10-2015
Quote:On the Praetorian guard:
They reached the power that they had in the third century because the emperors kept on bribing the Praetorians to make them emperor or to murder the current emperor, etc. After awhile, the Praetorians got the idea that they, along with the soldiers, were the real source of power. After that, the emperor's reign and longevity was decided by the Praetorians.
I think this is a little too simplistic, Jason, and may need some evidence to back it up.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Justin I - 01-10-2015
Quote:Augustine post=363867 Wrote:What is your personal take on Postumus?
I really couldn't say! He was presumably charismatic or effective enough for the army and people of Gaul to support him though...
What is your take on Gallienus? I've often wondered whether he was an ineffective emperor or whether he was just a victim of circumstances that were beyond his control. I'm not sure what to think of him.
Crisis of the 3rd Century&Growing Dangers of Trade - Sextus Saturninus - 01-10-2015
Vindex,
I really should have included some evidence in that post but here is some that I have collected:
I said:
They reached the power that they had in the third century because the emperors kept on bribing the Praetorians to make them emperor or to murder the current emperor, etc.
Evidence:
Didius Julianus who paid the Praetorians to make him emperor...
I said:
The emperor's reign and longevity was decided by the Praetorians.
( I forgot to include soldiers! )
Evidence:
Aemillianus, Trebonianus Gallus, Florianus, and Probus, all assassinated because the troops decided that they no longer supported that emperor...
That's two points I have evidence for.