+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Allies & Enemies of Rome (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Origin of the Alans (/showthread.php?tid=25332)
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 05-10-2016
Robert,
The illustration of the three skull types can only represent, "some of the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time," to quote Abraham Lincoln. They do show a vague difference between the Pazyryk Yuezhi (extending from Afanisievo), the Tagars (extending from Andronovo, being a later migration), and the Tuvans (an indigenous Central Siberian population). Today, the Altai people are still Tuvans, descendants of the Siberian Argippeans of Herodotus but now with a Turko-Mongol appearance.
What I'd like to know is why the Yuezhi didn't look like the Wusun, Saka, or Tarim mummy people, but rather had dark brown hair and moutaches... probably with a predominance of brown eyes. This is what we see in the Hollard study in my last post. Hollard's findings included one haplogroup Q-M242 male, plus three individuals within the Q-154 subclade. These markers are Tuvan, which indicates to me that people who were buried together obviously slept together. In other words, by the time these people arrived as historical Yuezhi, they had roughly a 50% Tuvan admixture... if we refer to Hollard.
Actually, there's a way to get a rough idea of original Tuvan facial features; or what 1/2 of the Yuezhi looked like. Twenty years ago, Dr. Ilya Zakharov used hair samples of 430 Tuvans and discovered the DNA matched one group of Amerindians by 72% and another group by 69%. (Christian Science Monitor, Dec. 8, 1998, by Judith Matloff) In 2004, Peter N. Jones did an extensive study on Amerindian DNA. His conclusion noted the Siberian Y-DNA haplogroups of Q-242/Q-M3-- the same as in the Hollard study, the same Central Siberian Tuvan genes-- crossed Beringia and entered North America between 18,000-15,000 ybp. They crossed the entire continent and reached the extreme eastern provinces, including Maine. (My wife, a Russian, once gasped, "This is Just Like Siberia!")
Maine has a remaining population from this northern Siberian migration, a disappearing group of 1,200 Penobscots and Micmacs, the last survivors of the Algonquian Abenaki. I've collected 10 accurate images by professional portrait painters or photographers, dated from 1616 to 1885. The above illustration is NOT one of the portraits, just a colored 1740 sketch of two Abenakis. After 15,000 years in the northern zone, they were still wearing the traditional Siberian hood or hat. We recognize this head-gear as "Scythian" or "Saka," but the two styles originated eons before a long trek by the Afanisievo. If anyone wants to see these original Scythian hoods... and what the ancient Tuvans and Yuezhi might have looked like... I will post the photos. If the northern Amerindian comparison is too "off subject," then don't respond.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 05-11-2016
2,400 Year-Old Zhou Dragon found with a Yuezhi "Twist"
This past Saturday, myself and several members of Legio III Cyrenaica went to Kennebunk, Maine, to march in the May Day Parade. Before the event, I visited the store of Cassius Julianus, our representative Senator. The store always has a few Roman and Egyptian artifacts, but this time I found a piece of Chinese jade-- an amazing Zhou dragon.
The Eastern Zhou dragon carried a distinctive style-- a heavy head and a tail that was straight on the top and convex along the underside. Both the Chinese and Yuezhi created distinctive animal-style art, in many ways similar, and the late Zhou dragon (pictured above) represents typical Chinese stylization. (I believe this artifact is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.)
Here is a piece of Yuezhi animal-style art, a realistic yet abstract tiger all in one piece, its hind quarters inverted 180 degrees. This artifact was found in a "Scythian" grave in Alagou, an ancient Yuezhi trading station in the Tarim Basin. (Previously, I've mentioned Alagou in connection with Arzhan-styled horse gear that goes back to 900 BC.) Important on this piece is the 180 degree "warping," plus an abstract shape which supposedly "defines" the so-called "Scythian animal-style."
We can also turn to the tattoo found on the left shoulder of the Ukok Priestess mummy. This is representative of the most sophisticated form of Yuezhi twist. Nobody knows the significance of a 180 degree offset. Possibly it represents two "planes," the "here" (the living) and the "future" (after death). We also find mirrors as very important to the Yuezhi-- and a mirror reflects a person's image at 180 degrees.
Now we can return to the Zhou dragon I found in Cassius' Kennebunk shop. It's totally different than other Eastern Zhou dragons, also quite late and crude. We are looking at high quality "Hetian" nephrite, straight from Khotan as carried to China on Yuezhi pack-horses. The carving "inverts" precisely where it should, at mid-point, bringing the dragon's legs inside the circle at 180 degrees from "reality." It's a poorly-worked Chinese copy of Yuezhi animal art. But to me, the sloppy craftsmanship doesn't matter... because we are viewing a Yuezhi-Chinese connection never seen before. And the cultural link is the important part.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 05-15-2016
The Yuezhi Empire and Origin of the Silk Road: Part 1
You may have noticed I've been impressed by the Yuezhi cultural connection to China. But it doesn't stop there, because every major Pazyryk kurgan also contains materials or artifacts from Persia and India. It's also obvious that I considered Graig Benjamin's assessment of the Yuezhi as "provincial," as he shank the Yuezhi burial sites into 12 modest podboi graves in Gansu. Let's step back and look at a bigger picture.
9th-8th Centuries BC: Arzhan bridles, snaffle bits, and weapons found in Tarim Basin graves.
645 BC: The Yuezhi sell Khotan (Tarim) jade to the Chinese.
4th Century BC: Pazyryk art-forms copied by the Chinese.
3rd Century BC: Pazyryk saddles, crenelated manes, and "S"-shaped cheek pieces, adopted by Qin cavalry.
Mid 3rd Century BC: Yuezhi queen annexes Qinghai, headwaters of the Yellow River, and northern Tibet.
204 BC: Xiongnu shanyu Modu breaks from Yuezhi confederation and attacks his former overlords.
176 BC: Modu again attacks the Yuezhi and breaks 30 states from the Yuezhi confederation.
162-161 BC: Modu's successor kills Yuezhi leader and drives the Yuezhi westward.
161 BC: Yuezhi plow through the Wusun, killing the Wusun leader.
161 BC: Part of the Yuezhi pass east to west through Tarim City States, no military conflicts.
c. Late 150's BC: Yuezhi settle in Illi Valley, no war, incorporate Sakarauli into their midst.
c. 135 BC: Wusun leader's son takes revenge, attacks Yuezhi with heavy aid from Xiongnu.
c. 135 BC: Yuezhi cross Dayuan (Fergana), no military resistance.
c. 134 BC: Yuezhi arrive in Kanju territory and resettle. No war, no resistance.
Is there anything unusual about this progression? And why would a severely weakened Yuezhi "remnant" encounter no resistance from the Tarim city states, Ferghana, or the four Saka states of the Kangju?
The answer is very impressive. Pictured above, we have a map of the Silk Road. We see Qinghai, where the Lesser Yuezhi resettled with no resistance from the Ch'iang Tibetans. West of the Han Dynasty border (Zhengye), we find the 12 city states in the Tarim Basin, all of them part of the Yuezhi confederation. We then move west to Sogdiana-Afghanistan (Kangju, gateway to India), where the Yuezhi finally resettled in the western part of their Empire. What we don't see, yet part of original Yuezhi territory, is the entire area cut from the top of this map-- the Altai, plus all of Western Mongolia, and a large chunk of the Central Asian steppe to Yancai (renamed Alanliu). All of this territory, including the unseen northern half, was the original Yuezhi Empire.
From the timeline above, we find no resistance from the Ch'iang Tibetans in the extreme south to the Kanju in the far west... because these tribes were part of the Yuezhi Empire to start with. Only the unfortunate death of the Wusun leader created military resistance. From the Silk Road map, we view an expanse of territory that ran from Han China, Tibet, all of Inner Mongolia, most of Western Mongolia, and included Kangju and also Yancai (north to the Aral Sea). As such the Yuezhi Empire was the largest confederation in Central Asia.
The southern half of the Yuezhi Empire coincides precisely with the known trade route. As such, the Yuezhi were the founders of the Silk Road six centuries before modern historians attribute its beginning to the Chinese. By the inclusion of Kangju and Yancai, we find the Yuezhi in former Massagetae territory, and also abutting Parthia, and we have a direct southern route to India. Is this just my odd opinion, or can we find someone to corroborate this premise? More to come.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 05-16-2016
The Yuezhi Empire and Origin of the Silk Road: Part 2
An identification of the Yuezhi as the Pazyryk culture was first proposed by John Haskins in a talk given in 1955. In 1967, Jettmar likened them to the Massagetae, noted the high honor paid to women in the kurgans, used Tomyris as an illustration, but stopped short of finding a historical society to fit the Pazyryks. Three years later, Sulimirski linked the Pazyryks to the Arimaspi of Herodotus. Not until 1994 would Haskins' original premise find strong advocates.
In that year, History of Central Asian Civilizations, Vol. II was published. The book included a major chapter, The Yue-chih and Their Migrations (p. 165-178), written by a select team-- K. Enoki, G.A. Koshelenko, and Z. Haidary. The book's editor was Janos Harmatta, the premier authority on Saka-Sarmatian cultures. Here are two incredibly interesting paragraphs on the Yuezhi by Enoki et al.
"They ruled the greater part of the Mongolian plain, possibly Dzungaria, the north of the Tien Shan where the Wusun lived, countries in the Tarim Basin, and the upper waters of the Yellow River. Their principle territory may have been Tun-huang [Dunhuang] and K'ang-chu [Kangju] which were the two most important places on the so-called Silk Route, but we should not consider that this region was the only territory held by them."
The position of the Yueh-chih as a predominant power in Central Asia, before being pressed by the Hsiung-nu, is also evident from the statement of Szu-ma Chien. He records that the authority of the Yueh-chih ruler was accepted by the countries of Central Asia. They provided free food to [Yuezhi] envoys moving through their countries, but messengers from China had to pay for their food as well as horses... the migration of the Yueh-chih was not that of a group of people from one place to another, but a withdrawal from the eastern and northern frontiers of the Yueh-chih Empire. [my bold print]"
Finally, I'll bore you to death with one more quote, this time from Enoki et al's. sub-chapter, The Yueh-chih and Pazirik: "The tombs at Pazirik, excavated by Professor S. I. Rudenko, are very well known, and are dated between the fifth and third centuries B.C. The third century B.C. coincides with the date when the Yueh-chih were at the apex of their power, before they were challenged by the Hsiung-nu. The Altai region in fact was part of the Yueh-chih Empire, and the sites at Pazirik should be related to the Yueh-chih."
Most important, if we plot Yuezhi holdings on a map we discover the Altai represents the hub of their dominion. From this location-- today termed the "epicenter of Central Asia"-- we can see how the Yuezhi Empire fanned out to reach multiple civilizations. from Eastern Europe to Persia, down to India, and finally to China.
Within the Yuezhi branch of the Saka, we're not only viewing the origin of the Alans, but also one of Asia's great cultures. This map, hanging on the wall of the Hermitage, shows the incredible connections founded by the Yuezhi State. The map actually dates back to Arzhan (800 BC to 650 BC), and shows how the Yuezhi snaffle-bit reached all corners of Asia and Eastern Europe. This multiplex of connectivity binds Europe to beyond the Great Wall. It reveals the amazing links formed by a hitherto unknown yet influential society with the better-known prehistory and history of the ancient world.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Michael Kerr - 05-24-2016
Not much to add to previous posts on Yuezhi but I read Haskins paper and although his achievements and tenacity to make his way to the Altai are to be admired he seemed to have come to the same conclusion as Lozinski who I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread in that they both thought that the Ta/Da or Greater Yuezhi (Great Gweti, Gwoti, Goti) had a similar name to the Massagetae (Great Getae), due to an inaccurate Early Medieval Chinese transcription. Although remnants of the descendants of the Massagetae may have been part of the Yuezhi by the 3rd century BC, this theory doesn’t make sense as the Massagetae were around in the 6th Century BC and the name Great Yuezhi did not exist before at least end of 3rd Century BC.
When did the Yuezhi break up into the Great Yuezhi and the Little (Xiao) Yuezhi?. There have been a few divisions of the Yuezhi, in either 207 BC or 176 BC or both years, then again in 162 BC, in the Ili Basin in 132 BC. More than likely the killing of the Yuezhi king in 162 BC caused the break but the Yuezhi must have leaked supporters every time they were attacked. I think Alanus stated that after they were driven from Ili Valley in about 132 BC a lot of Yuezhi and Saka stayed behind and acknowledged the Wusun leadership which is common in steppe politics.
It is assumed that the Little Yuezhi withdrew to the Tibetan highlands and co-existed with the Qiang who were also nomadic and thought to be Proto-Tibetans. They may have been a weaker, less militarized part of the Yuezhi. Enoki seems to think that the Qiang were subjects of the Yuezhi and that the Little Yuezhi simply lived among them and did not migrate with the main group but stayed amongst their Qiang subjects and after a while spoke the same language as the Qiang and assimilated. Maybe this group of Yuezhi who lived in the mountains shared some ethnicity with the Qiang ruling class. Here is an image of the Qinghai region that they either occupied or escaped to.
There is also some later textual evidence in the Hou Han Shu that some of the Yuezhi did not migrate but lived alongside the Etsin Gol River near the Qilian Mountains which 2000 years ago looked a lot different to the present day which shows the effects of desertification due to clearing, logging and intense irrigation. It once had abundant water flows and a large lake (now totally gone) and plenty of forests. I have the feeling that the Gansu corridor looked a lot different 2500 years ago to the present day and probably could sustain larger populations.
According to Pulleyblank in his paper Chinese and Indo-Europeans, in the year 184 there was a serious revolt in both Kansu and Ch'ang-an of the Little Yuezhi who had been loyal auxiliaries of the Chinese. The revolt was not suppressed fully until 221. Chinese sources give no reason for the uprising but about this time the Kushans (Greater Yuezhi) under Kaniska, were expanding into Eastern Turkestan (Tarim) which could have been the stimulus which stirred their cousins to the east to take up arms. If true then the two groups maintained some sort of loose contact through the various silk routes. I haven't got them on hand at the moment but there are later sources
Pulleyblank also mentions in his paper of the occurrence is in the year A.D. 265 when a certain Yu-ch'ih K'o-ch'uan, evidently a tribal chieftain, is mentioned with some 30,000 households on the Ta-fei River in Ch'ing-hai (i.e. Buhain gol, the main river flowing into Kokonor from the west).
In 403 the same name occurs again, this time in the Ordos. In that year a chieftain of the Yu-ch'ih tribe surrendered to T'o-pa Wei with over 10,000 households and was moved to the neighbourhood of the T'o-pa capital in northern Shansi. A move from Kansu to the Ordos sometime in the 4th century is not at all surprising in view of the troubled times.
From then on Yu-ch'ih was a noble clan among the T'o-pa and men of that surname are prominent up to and through the T'ang period. In T'o-pa times they were distinguished from other noble clans as being of western origin. So the Little Yuezhi just didn't disappear after the Hsiung-nu attack in 162 BC.
Regards
Michael Kerr
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 06-11-2016
This is a short reply, but I want to thank Michael for the informative post. The climate of Gansu, upper Tibet, and the Tarim Basin was less arid 2,000 years ago. Here is a late 19th century map of Koko-nor where the Lesser Yuezhi lived at that time.
Also, the Altai had weather that was humid and less cold during the Yuezhi occupation. The Yuezhi connection to the Toba Wei was certainly not coincidental, and we see the same situation with the noble Ashina clan of the Gokturks. If anyone hasn't noticed, the physical features of the Pazyryks and Kushans give a very "Turkic" impression. While it's been said that the Turkic tribes extended solely from the Xiongnu, I'm not inclined to agree. The only real difference is the language, which actually extends from the Altai.
Another point I've noticed is the similarity in names-- Yuezhi and Aorsi. If we consider Aorsi as a two-syllable name, and if the "A" was "whispered" as in "y" (aka, silent), then we have "Yor-si"... a lot like "Yue-zhi." I'm working full-time now, 10 hours a day, so my postings will be shorter. Glad everyone is enjoying this thread.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 06-23-2016
Envoy Zhang Qian Drinks White Wine with the Great King of the Rouzhi
Last night, Michael gave me a link to a Chinese documentary-- The Hexi Corridor, Episode 1. Within the story, Emperor Han Wudi sends 27-year-old Zhang Qian to the West in an effort to contact the Yuezhi, spelled "Rouzhi" in the film. You already know the tale: Zhang Qian gets captured by the Xiongnu, marries a "loving woman," and finally escapes captivity ten years later. He continues West, attempting to fulfil his mission, finally reaches the land of the mysterious Rouzhi, and meets their leader.
Zhang Qian (scruffy from ten years of Xiongnu hospitality) sits on the right, drinking wine with the Great King of the Rouzi.
The Great King toasts Zhang Qian for being the First Living Person to meet a Rouzhi wearing either a raja's or caliph's turban.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Michael Kerr - 06-24-2016
Obviously the documentary makers are using a bit of poetic license in their depiction of a turban for the series but I would not dismiss turbans out of hand in regards to the Yuezhi. They did conquer the Greco-Bactrian kingdoms and the Macedonian men would have worn the kausia or Macedonian flat hat and would have worn this type of cap in the harsh cold winters of Central Asia.
This hat in turn could have been the origin of the pakol which is popular in Afghanistan and Pakistan although Herodotus talks about the Bactrians at the battle of Platea in 479 and their turbans, bows and spears so it is not out of the question that the Yuezhi adopted this woollen cap or turban. I realise that these caps look nothing like the turban depicted in the film.
I think there is also a Kushan coin in which Kanishka seems to be wearing a turban like cap. The coin on the left.
As to the full beards here are some armed Kushan males from a relief panel from the Grey Schist in Gandharan, Pakistan from 2nd-3rd centuries AD.
Regards
Michael Kerr
RE: Origin of the Alans - childeric - 06-27-2016
A friend of mine just sent me this
http://www.warfare.altervista.org/Ancient/Yuezhi-embroidery-Noyon_uul.htm
RE: Origin of the Alans - Michael Kerr - 06-28-2016
Hi Rodger, I gave you a rating for the article but unfortunately I can only give neutral ratings so it doesn't show up on your Reputation figure.
Regards
Michael Kerr
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 06-28-2016
Hi Childeric and Michael,
Thank you both for posting. The fresco from Gandhara shows the Yuezhi after Greek influence, and so we see classic beards. The Yuezhi rug fragments found in a Xiongnu grave (illustrated in Sergei Yatsenko's paper) show the Yuezhi at an earlier time, and we see no beards and just moustaches. This corresponds well with our rider on the wall hanging in Pazyryk 5. The depiction of man No. 10 leading a horse is almost identical to a figure with a horse on the famous carpet, also from Pazyryk 5.
The figure wearing armor in Fig. 3 suffers from deterioration, which is a shame. There are too few illustrated examples of Yuezhi armor. Within Pazyryk graves, we see no armor, lance heads, or even swords. To me, this implies the deceased were not riding off to war, but were going to a hunting-ground in their afterlife. Perhaps no war existed in their form of Elysium. Recently, Gala Argent gave a talk at a Paris symposium on this lack of swords and armor, and she noted the Pazyryks appear to be buried with "everyday items." I'll try to get a copy of the speech from her.
I might add that Sergei Yatsenko and Gala Argent are members of Academia.com, membership is free, and their papers are available to others. I respect both, each outstanding in their chosen field.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 07-14-2016
The Yuezhi/Pazyryk "Problem"-- Perspective & Subjectivity.
Recently, I found this introductory statement to a paper by Pavel Azbelev, a "researcher" attached to the Hermitage. He doesn't mince words:
"Attempts to correlate the Yuezhi of Chinese sources with Pazyryk culture that have been made since the middle of the last century are completely groundless. Detailed examination shows that the material evidences which were used as a proof of this theory and its further development are either anachronistic or reflect connections so broad that separate comparison of single cultures and monuments is meaningless. At the same time, there are reasons to suppose that those who belonged to the Pazyryk culture were a part of the Dingling. In the 6th century their distant descendants accounted for the bulk of the subordinate tribes of ethno-political hierarchy of the First Turkic Khaganate, which explains some similarities between Pazyryk and Old Turkic cultures."
Amazingly, Mr. Azbelev manages to immediately dismiss, if not insult, a number of respected individuals who believe in the Yuezhi-Pazyryk connection. Not a great way of making friends in the academic community. Azbelev comes across as "pan-Turkic," his bias so obvious that no amount of "supposition" can hide it. He simply takes a negative position, perhaps without garnering all the connections.
Certainly, the strongest link between the Yuezhi and Pazyryks comes to the fore during the rise of the Qin Dynasty. We see Qin bordering the Hexi Corridor in Gansu, the immediate western neighbors being the Yuezhi. We have the chieftain Wushi Lau hobnobbing with the emperor himself. We see the Emperor Huangdi's terracotta horses wearing Pazyryk-styled saddles and S-shaped cheek-pieces which are distinctive to Pazyryk, particularly to Berel Kurgan 11 (and the possibility exists that the chieftain buried in K 11 could be Wushi Lau, along with his East Asian wife).
This kind of connection is not groundless or "anachronistic" in any fashion except in Mr. Azbelev's subjective world. He, of course, is referring to the connections raised by Haskins (1956) and Enoki (1994). The Pazyryk-to-Qin link is well established. It stands in front of every occidental tourist who purchases a mausoleum ticket in Xian.
The connection pops up again and again. We hear this from Dr. Christine Hofmann, "C.S. Goodrich (1984: 295) noticed the similarity of the design of some cheek-bars found in China to the design of the same parts found in steppe burials... we see the pieces on a terracotta horse from the tomb of Qin Shihuang; for comparison, a similar model found on several horses from Pazyryk burials can be seen in Figure 3. [she then illustrates a horse from Pazyryk Kurgan 5] The similarity between these artifacts is striking; clearly, this S-shaped design, if nothing else, seems to be a contribution from the steppe people." (see Hofmann, A Study of Central Eurasian Innovations in Warring States China and Their Impact on War and Domination; Master of Arts Thesis, 2012, PDF)
How can Azbelev dismiss this connection, just one of many, and then create a hypothetical supposition that the Pazyryks were not Yuezhi (or even Indo-Iranian) but proto-Turks? In fact, he doesn't seem to be aware that subtribes of the Wusun and Yuezhi entered the Turkic collective before the word "Turkic" was historically defined. (aka the Ashina, and also members of the Touba Wei) There certainly was a Yuezhi-Pazyryk connection to later Turkish tribes, but we cannot dismiss a proven Indo-Iranian link occurring centuries earlier to the Saka.
Other news-- I finally found a reasonably-priced copy of Sergei Rudenko's classic for $65. The dust jacket is in excellent condition, and I was surprised that the book arrived in its original slip-case. I might add that Rudenko believed the Pazyryks and Yuezhi were "identical." (see Kato Kyuzo, Senri Ethological Studies 32, p. 19, 1992)
RE: Origin of the Alans - Merlkir - 07-17-2016
Hello, everyone!
I wish I found this thread earlier.
Almost two years ago, I decided to write and draw a graphic novel: Announcement on my blog, explaining what it's about.
(note that I used some incorrect terms at the time, such as "nomadic" etc. For one, English is my second language, but also I just knew a lot less back then.)
Since then I spent most of my free time researching for this purpose. The story and focus of the novel changed a few times, as I learnt more and more and started to put the puzzle pieces together.
(there are a few more blog posts about the comic, but nothing that useful for the discussion here)
So, imagine my surprise, when during a routine google search, I found this thread. And every single page either mirrored something I pieced together, or added something new and interesting above the overlapping material I had.
Now, I focus more on the Kushans, China and everything inbetween in the 2nd century CE. What came before is only important for context as well as for my hypotheses on religion. The actual Alans don't figure in the story at all. I also focus a lot on my own speculations on religion and spiritual cultures of these people, mostly based on the work of Esther Jacobson-Tepfer and a few others.
Today has been quite the ride, really. I added about two pages to my already existing 28 pages of (horribly messy and unsorted) notes.
Alanus, I think you've got something here. I don't agree with everything, you speculate a LOT and do exactly what scholars mostly refuse to do - associate historical cultures with material cultures, neatly wrapping them in a big basket with a Yuezhi label.
I'd be also wary of drawing too many conclusions from the customs and culture of currently living populations, or from associating cultures based on superficial similarities in material culture. (which may be a result of practical coincidence, minor cultural exchange etc.)
I mean, for my purposes, this stuff is totally fine - I'm writing fiction. ;
I have a folder full of material showing similarities between scytho-siberian, Mycenean/Minoan, BMAC and many other religious cultures. (to me it's about filling in context, possibly revealing some shared (possibly later supressed) underlying root beliefs, motifs and ideas, I'm not trying to reveal a massive all encompassing ur-culture) Without having my source at hand (typing this quite unprepared), I'd echo the comments that the climate of Central Asia changed a lot, so drawing conclusions from looking at it now won't be that helpful. I hope to find it again, but I distinctly remember one source mentioning a fortress changing hands between the Han and Xiongnu several times, during radical climate changes, with rivers drying up completely at some point. (maybe it was near a "dragon city"? I'm sure I have it noted down somewhere)
Also, there are underground water canals irrigating the Tarim oases and their crops (all the grapes and water melons) with melting ice water from the Tian Shan. The "karez" were supposedly built cca 206 BCE - 24 CE.
One thing I'm not sure of after reading the thread is your opinion on the Yuezhi language(s) and the related classification of their culture. (At some point you mentioned you're starting to believe they spoke proto-Tocharian, later you dismissed it...)
Related to this - how you see the oasis states fitting into your big picture and if you agree with there being remnants of much earlier BMAC culture surviving in this area.
Quote:What we're not getting from a written record, we're finding through depictions on cultural artifacts. Below, is a detailed illustration of the gold "Wusun Diadem." Like the so-called "Siberian" buckle, it was crafted in the Ordos by Northern Chinese. Ordos art has a very distinctive style of interlocking branches and leaves. Here we see a woman riding a horned dragon. Notice what appears to be a short cloak extending from her shoulder. The significance of this piece puzzles me, so any thoughts are welcome.
This diadem was in the Kangali grave. Y.A. Zadneprovskiy notes, "A famous [Wusun] find is the Kangali burial of a female shaman discovered at an altitude of 2,300 m., near Almaty, containing jewelry, clothing, head-dress, and nearly 300 gold objects." Another find in Tenlik in eastern Zletysu contained the grave of a high-ranking warrior (no hint as to gender), whose clothing had been decorated with around 100 golden bosses.
The two Wusun graves show an amazing cultural link to the Saka kurgan grave of the Golden Woman. On her clothing, we find hundreds of gold bosses. Additionally, in view of the term "shaman," I'm adding a photo of the Golden Woman's gold rings and a close-up of her tall hat. (To anyone new to RAT, simply "click" on the picture and it will enlarge in a separate box. You can then "right-click" on the larger image and save it for your files.)
Hah, perhaps I can actually contribute something! (even if it's from the 1st page
)Katheryn Lindeluff explains the Kargaly diadem as a Chinese influence. (depicting Immortals riding dragons into heaven, what you thought to be a cape being wings of the Immortal)
https://www.academia.edu/9338802/Immortals_in_a_foreign_land_the_Kargaly_diadem
RE: Origin of the Alans - Alanus - 07-19-2016
Hello, Jan
The diadem from the Kangli grave could easily depict a winged woman, rather than a woman wearing a short cape. I recognized it as an Ordos piece, and it has many features created by Chinese craftsmen for a "barbarian" clientele.
A word on the Tocharian language. It's early, IE centum, and obviously dates back to the Afanasievo culture. Perhaps the first to speculate that it might be connected to certain Tarim states were Mallory and Mair. This premise was then used by Benjamin to project it's use by the entire Yuezhi and progressively by Kushana. But, if we go back to the Bronze age, we find an overlap-- both Andronovo and the Siema-Turbino Phenomenon lapping over Afanasievo-- in which we would see the major language of the Yuezhi confederation speaking Eastern Iranian. The Kushan coins were minted in Bactrian, a Eastern Iranian tongue, and we can extend it to the Aorsi/Arsi/Alan/Ossetic language. So I now believe Tocharian remained in the Tarim, localized.
Prior to the formation of this RAT thread, no-one had projected the origin of the Alans... who simply came from "the East." This whole thread has been a learning process, particularly aided by Michael Kerr and other members. Coming into it-- as we see from the initial post-- I had a rough idea of Alanic origins. The most enlightening piece was the Orlat battle plaque, which visually shows a Yuezhi, Pazyryk, Chinese, Alan connection. The distinctive style used by the artist reflects the hind-quarters and cow-hock legs of the horse depicted on the felt hanging found in Pazyryk K5, and this style cannot be found anywhere else.
Today, I received my copy of Jacobson-Tepfer's The Hunter, The Stag, and The Mother of Animals. Frankly, I don't see a difference between my "speculation" and her "interpretation." As a rule, we don't find scenarios within academic PDFs, simply because anyone submitting a master's or doctorial thesis can't afford black marks by the review board. On the other hand, we find speculation within published material, and Esther Jacobson-Tepfer is certainly a prime example. Her book is written entirely from a subjective viewpoint. Interpretation repeats itself, and on pages 2 and 3 we find Jacobson-Tepfer describing (and illustrating) the same felt hanging from Pazyryk K5. Within this RAT thread, Michael Kerr posited a similar illustration from the Bosphorus Kingdom when it was controlled by the Aorsi. These two nearly identical illustrations are not ambiguous, do not link to other Scytho-Sarmatian cultures, and graphically depict a cultural connection between Pazyryk, the Yuezhi, and the Alans.
Here we have the Pazyryk illustration.
And here is the Bosphorus funeral painting posted by Michael. According to Jacobson-Tepfer, the woman is the "guardian of the road" to the next realm, and the rider is the deceased. Both illustrations show horses with crenellated manes, also distinctive to the Pazyryks, Qin and Han Chinese, and the Aorsi.
It's all connective. I disdain the negative stance taken by Asbelev (mentioned in my last post) when he attempts to link the Pazyryks solely with a Turkish foundation, aka the Dingling. If we go back to the "beginning," we find a swath of linked cultures from the middle Ob, the Minuminsk Basin, the Sayan, straight east to Tuva and the Arzhan burial ground. All of these Scytho-Siberian cultures were interrelated, forming the iron age Sargatskya (who gave us the eared bow) and the Arzhan culture. The latter must have split into the Issedones/Wusun and the Arimaspi/Yuezhi, which steadily moved further to the south. Sometime after Arzhan 2, the Yuezhi came to the fore, taking the "high ground" (Altai) and driving the kindred Wusun westward.
For the interconnection between the BMC and Tarim peoples? It was a two-way trade route... which actually began at the dawn of the horse-riding Iron age. We find Arzhan-styled earrings and snaffle bits in the Tarim prior to the 8th century BC. We find a Sargat-styled bow at Niya. And we discover Bactrian turquoise and lapis lazuli in Tarim graves and also at Arzhan 2. I firmly believe this was the beginning of the Yuezhi trade route. It would appear the Tarim city states were part of the Yuezhi "Kingdom" (to quote Enoki).
We don't know the full story and we'll never truly figure it out. In 176 BC, the Xiongnu broke over 20 tribes from the Yuezhi federation. Some of these tribes we can identify, like the Loufan and Wusun. We know the Little Yuezhi remained behind, and we are aware that a significant population of this remainder became participants in founding the Turkic culture. This isn't in variance with the Pazyryk to Yuezhi connection but rather an extension of it.
RE: Origin of the Alans - Michael Kerr - 07-19-2016
Alanus wrote: I can partially agree with most of Riddle's claim, but not with their location-- "astride the Gansu Corridor and in the Tarim Basin." You couldn't find enough water in the Tarim Basin to keep a hundred horses alive, not to mention thousands. The basin was a near desert, inhabited by a modest, Tocharian-speaking, sedentary group now known as the "Tarim Mummies."
You are correct that the Tarim Basin and the Gansu Corridor are extremely arid regions with low precipitation. As to the horses and livestock I think we have established that the Yuezhi were basically middlemen who seemed to control the trade in jade, precious metals, leather goods and horses to the Chinese for silk mainly. Whether they purchased these goods or received them as tribute we do not know but the nomadic elements of the Yuezhi, like the pastoralists of today probably didn’t spend that much time in the Taklimakan Desert.
Even today there is still a considerable number of pastoralists in the three main regions of Chinese Central Asia (Gansu, Tarim Basin and Dzungaria) a bit over 1 million people, made up mainly of Kazakhs, Mongolians and Tajiks who still practice seasonal migration. If we look at the Gansu/Hexi corridor in particular pastoralists still employ seasonal grazing patterns practised for thousands of years where herds graze in the river basins in winter, move to the lower mountains to the south in spring and then to the high mountains in summer and then return to the basins in late Autumn.
As you can see from the satellite pics a lot of that surrounding winter snow and ice would have flowed into the Tarim in warmer months and there were still a lot of green areas around the river areas.
If the Yuezhi controlled the Tarim Basin, which was the gateway to the west, which would be highly likely before they were attacked by the Hsiung-nu in 209 BC. then there would have been a similar situation in regards to grazing their herds as in the Gansu. Being surrounded by mountains and being so dry the Yuezhi would have pastured their herds in the highlands except for winter and left the good citizens of the oasis cities or towns alone for the most part. They may even have pitched their camps near the towns in the winter months and expected fodder for their herds. Sir Aurel Stein mentioned in his book that in winter his party would break up river ice and load it onto large metal containers which were carried by his bactrian camel team when they were searching for lost cities.
Stein, the British-Hungarian explorer and archaeologist who made four archaeological expeditions to Central Asia between 1900 and 1930, in his book “On Ancient Central Asian Tracks” made some interesting observations about the climate and conditions for the Tarim Basin and Gansu Corridor. He wrote “The region for the most part is mostly desert surrounded by five mountain chains. To the north lay the T’ien Shan, to the south-east lay the high mountains and plateaux of the K’un-lun Mountains while to the south-west lay the Karakoram Mountains. To the west lay the Pamirs which connect the T’ien Shan to the Hindu Kush while to the east lay the Nan-shan which is itself a continuation of the K’un-lun and of then of course the Gansu corridor which contains a string of oases covered by the northern edge of the Tibetan plateau while to the north lay the Gobi desert and the outer Mongolian grasslands running south-east to the Yellow River. Even in 1905 when he wrote the book he noted that runoff from melting glaciers has been reduced as they retreat due to climate change and wetlands and lakes in the mountainous regions have been disappearing. The Lop Nor or the “Wandering Lake” and its associated marshland areas has completely disappeared since the 1970s, mainly because the course of the Tarim River, which is the largest inland river in China, has changed. Man-made erosion, overuse of water resources and conversion of pasture to crops hasn’t helped.
Shifting sand dunes over thousands of years seem to have affected the oasis towns on the Tarim southern Silk Road route more as the south to north flowing rivers cutting through the mountains offered little protection from the shifting sands while to the north the west to east flowing Tarim River allowed vegetation to create a barrier to protect fields from shifting sand dunes. A lot of the cities on the southern Silk Road route in the time of the Yuezhi were located approximately 100 kms south of their present location so the locals have had their work cut out fighting not only invasions but the deserts and shifting weather patterns, sometimes run off from melting glaciers causing rivers to cut new channels but also in times of heavy snowfalls which would also create havoc when melting. Maintaining wells and canals would have been an extremely labour intensive occupation for the sedentary town dwellers as well as growing their crops and fruit trees which although long dead when Stein visited seemed to line the streets of long lost cities in the Tarim.
Regards
Michael Kerr