Kalkriese and the Clades Variana

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Kalkriese and the Clades Variana - Thiudareiks Flavius - 03-03-2002

You guys didn't think you could have a discussion on my pet subject without me did you I hope you'll forgive me starting a new thread for it though, as the discussion on the 'battered helmets' thread isn't really about battered helmets anymore. 
 
I think Dan's points are interesting, and I'm certainly open to the idea that Kalkriese was actually a minor engagement associated with Arminius' uprising rather than part of the main event. That said, there are still some very good reasons, IMO, to continue to regard it as a site of at least part of the main battle. 
 
 (i) The Distribution of the Finds 
If, as Dan argues, the site is one of a detachment of Roman forces which was attacked as part of the uprising, we'd expect the finds to be much more heavily concentrated, particularly if the wall was a Roman construction rather than a Germanic one. In fact, the finds are distributed over a 10-15 kilometer area, beginning with some about 3-4 kilometers south-east of the Kalkrieseberg, with the finds continuing around the curve of the mountain, increasing in quantity, until the main deposits are found between the north flank of the mountain and the moorlands. If this was a detachment attacked in their camp, why do we find this pattern of deposits? The pattern seems to fit a unit attacked on the march much better. 
 
 (ii) The Nature of the Finds 
The variety of objects found is another indication that this was more than a centuria surprised by the rebels. Apart from fragments of weapons and armour, there are 'a relatively large number of tool and instruments with various functions ... (and) not a few of these objects can be attributed, in fact to the non-fighting untis of the Roman army.' (Schluter p145-146). These include surveying equipment, wood and leather-working tools and surgical instruments. The famous silvered face mask may have belonged to a standard bearer, or could be an indication of the presence of cavalry and luxury items like the jewelled scabbard mount and the fitting from an ivory inlaid couch are also possible indications of high ranking officers. If this was a smaller unit, then it certainly seemed to include a number of the kinds of ancilliary elements you'd expect to find in the main body of Varus' army - artesans, surveyors, surgeons and officers. This is not to say such a detachment definitely wouldn't include these troops, but this evidence lends itself better to the idea that these remains are from the main force of Varus' army, not a detachment. 
 
 (iii) The Mules and Horse Tack 
A large number of the bones found were those of pack-mules and a generally corresponding amount of tack - bits, harness mounts, yoke-mounts and belt spacers. Again, a small detachment may well have had a large number of mules in their camp, but these finds are further good indicators that this force was on the move when attacked. 
 
 (iv)The Wall 
There are a number of problems with the idea that the earthworks found on the site were Roman in origin. As Jasper has pointed out, the wall has no facing ditch - unlike Roman earthworks of this type. Dan has argued that perhaps the wall was thrown up quickly in the face of an impending (or already occuring) attack, but the fact that large sections of the wall have a core of shaped chalk blocks argues against this. Taken with the fact that the wall is not an enclosure, it still seems most likely that these works were built by the Germanic forces as part of their trap. 
 
 (v) The Buried Human Remains 
Most of the human remains found so far seem to have originally spent some time exposed to the elements, before being buried. This fits with Tacitus' account of Germanicus' visit to the site of Varus' last stand and his burial of the exposed bones they found scattered across the battlefield. Unless the Germanics were nice enough to come back to the site of their massacre of our supposed small detachment and bury them, or unless Germanicus or some other later Roman commander found our dead detachment and gave them a burial much as had been done with the remains of the main force, this is another indication that Kalkriese is the 
site of both the last stand and Germanicus' later burials. 
 
Again, none of this adds up to any conclusive evidence that this was the site of part of the battle against the main force of Varus' army and if, as Dan suggests, some other site is revealed as the real battlefield no-one would be more delighted than me. But until then I'm still fairly comfortable with Schluter's conclusion that this is the real thing. As he argues: 
 
Any view that the site at Kalkriese is to be considered merely as a secondary theatre of war and not the principal battlefield is questionable, not only because of the great extent of the area over which finds have been made, but also because of the state of preservation, location and composition of the finds. They confirm that not only were Roman fighting forces - legionary divisions, auxiliary units and cavalry - caught up in the fighting, but also that all the non-fighting specialists which one would normally expect in a Roman army, that is, the entire retinue of craftsmen, surveyors, clerks, doctors and others, were also affected by the German attacks. 
 
Schluter p. 154 
 
While it's true that the human remains don't indicate a death toll in the thousands, it would be a bit foolhardy to try to assess the size of the Roman force from the remains excavated so far. These reamins have been recovered from certain parts of the site where conditions are more favourable for the preservation of organic material. Across most of the site virtually nothing organic has survived and across most of the site only metal, ceramic and glass objects remain. Secondly, since the fighting went on for several days and probably ranged over a wide area as the Romans tried to fight their way out of Arminius' trap, we wouldn't expect the majority of the remains to be found at Kalkriese. 
 
BTW - I don't want to see the monument at Detmold moved north though - I'd actually prefer to see that winged-helmeted Nineteenth Century monstrosity blown up to be honest. 
Cheers, 
Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 

Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project

Re: Kalkriese and the Clades Variana - Daniel S Peterson - 03-03-2002

Greetings Tim, I was wondering when you would finally join in! First, I want to congratulate you on your fine website, and unique approach to a film project. I wish it the best success, and if I can ever be of assistance in some "reenactment" capacity should it reach fruition, please do not hesitate to ask. Actually I have been meaning to contact you at your site with some ideas, but just handn't gotten around to it yet. 
 
Second, I wanted to say that I think the Kalkreise site itself is a fantastic place, and I have done my best to help promote interest in it. Shortly after the initial excavations, I volunteered to help an American "Discovery Channel" production with live action Roman scenes to liven their documentary. I ended up wallowing in a "swamp" on our Army base here, getting pounded on by Germans as I clutched the Aquila. Then, just last year, drove all the way to North Wales for the "Lost Legions of Varus" for British Channel four (I think), and again, with eagle in hand, fought off some wild Celtic extras in a (fabricated) but very effective and wet thunder storm (which finally ruined my original, red feather crest). And then suffered the indignity of lying in the mud in the still pouring "rain" with the "Germans" stripping my phalera, etc. I also volunteered the loan of my three full Roman legions of approx 15,000 painted figures in 25mm (designed to depict the Varus Army) and eight full-size Augustan Roman and Germanic figures, which were previously on display at the prestigious exhibit in Rosenheim. Unfortunately, I was informed, they had no space. I also offered our Leg XIIII for their grand opening, probably the only group in Germany that can equip over 20 men in authentic, circa, 9AD equipment, but it seems they are completely "booked up" with German groups and can't invite anyone else. (Such is the fate of being an "auslander" in Germany, even if you practically "started" it all here). So you can see, I'm trying to do my bit. 
 
As much as I too wanted "to believe" I was unconvinced Kalkriese could possibly be the Varus battlefield due to the Germanic earthworks in such close proximity to the remains of Roman draft animals. I never would doubt the abilities of the Germans to build a defensive earthwork, this was done in the bronze age, and I suspect even in paleolithic times. What I have a problem with is the fact that if this was indeed a Germanic obstacle, one would assume that it would have been met by Roman combat units, which normally would be in the vanguard. Everything I have ever read indicates that the baggage was normally kept to the rear. In this case it seems that the baggage train was used as the Roman attack force with the task of assaulting the German defensive berm! With some simple mathematics, one soon calculates that if the head of the Roman column contacted the Germans at "the berm", the baggage train would be so far back, that their location could no longer be considered at "Kalkreise". Is there a plausible explanation for this that I somehow missed? Please, I want "to believe" too! If we begin our doubts at this stage, everything else unravels as well. The fact that a few medical instruments were found hardly indicates this was the legionary medical staff. Such instruments are common finds at even small Roman posts. I suspect every Roman century had some medical instruments and a detailed medical orderly. I also suspect some soldiers had some of these instruments in their own kit for such mundane tasks as removing splinters or scooping earwax from ears. I wouldn't be surprised if every Roman contubernium had a shared set of a few basic instruments. Every Roman century probably had some surveying instruments too, and a possible bit off of a piece of higher grade furniture hardly suggests it came off of "Varus's personal litter". Has a "Roman litter" ever been positively found before, to suggest the provenance of the piece in question? 
 
The apparent, complete disintrigration of thousands of bones seems a bit of a cop-out as well, especially since they are reasonalbly well presevered where they have found them. I am sure they have among their equipment Ground-penetrating radar, and if all of the bones "sadly disintrigrated", they could still locate the alledged burial pits by these means. This is especially so, since they already found a few pits, so they would know exactly what anomolies to look for in the print outs. If there are more burial pits there, teeth and the most resilient bone fragments would certainly still be there. 
 
I could go on and on, but there is no point. As in religion, true "believers" will always have faith despite the evidence to the contrary, and "sceptics" will be damned for their alledged heresay. I'm a "believer" too though. I have great faith that even under the worst of cirumstances, and the (Teutoburger debacle had to be one of the worst), that the Roman army was still too professional to attack a fortified position blocking their escape and salvation, with their baggage train (and provincial governor's litter). 
 
Keep up the good work, and all the best, Dan.

Re: Kalkriese and the Clades Variana - Thiudareiks Flavius - 03-04-2002

Dan wrote: 
 
Greetings Tim, I was wondering when you would finally join in! First, I want to congratulate you on your fine website, and unique approach to a film project. I wish it the best success, and if I can ever be of assistance in some "reenactment" capacity should it reach fruition, please do not hesitate to ask. Actually I have been meaning to contact you at your site with some ideas, but just handn't gotten around to it yet. 
 
Thanks for the encouraging words Dan. Any ideas or comments you may have would be very welcome on the Varus Forum I can assure you, as I've been a fan of your work for many years. 
 
I ended up wallowing in a "swamp" on our Army base here, getting pounded on by Germans as clutched the Aquila. Then, just last year, drove all the way to North Wales for the "Lost Legions of Varus" for British Channel four (I think), and again, with eagle in hand, fought off some wild Celtic extras in a (fabricated) but very effective and wet thunder storm (which finally ruined my original, red feather crest). And then suffered the indignity of lying in the mud in the still pouring "rain" with the "Germans" stripping my phalera, etc. 
 
I glad to hear the authenticity of these productions didn't extend to you being burnt alive as a sacrifice to Wodanaz and Tiwaz or having your severed head nailed to a tree. One of the producers of the 'Lost Legions' documentary contacted me a while back and we had a good e-mail exchange on various matters. He promised to send me a copy of the finished product, but unfortunately it never arrived. It hasn't been shown on Australian TV yet, so if anyone knows how I can get hold of a copy I'd be very grateful. 
 
As much as I too wanted "to believe" I was unconvinced Kalkriese could possibly be the Varus battlefield due to the Germanic earthworks in such close proximity to the remains of Roman draft animals. I never would doubt the abilities of the Germans to build a defensive earthwork, this was done in the bronze age, and I suspect even in paleolithic times. What I have a problem with is the fact that if this was indeed a Germanic obstacle, one would assume that it would have been met by Roman combat units, which normally would be in the vanguard. Everything I have ever read indicates that the baggage was normally kept to the rear. In this case it seems that the baggage train was used as the Roman attack force with the task of assaulting the German defensive berm! 
 
 
I'm as sceptical as you are regarding any use of squads of 'elite Roman attack mules' at Kalkriese, as I doubt this is what the evidence indicates. Firstly, we know from Dio's account that Varus' column was in some disarray even before the first ambush, largely due to the nature of the terrain and the terrible weather conditions. This disorder was made worse by the constant attacks once the trap was sprung and Varus' attempts to pull his forces together and counter-attack effectively were, again, severely hampered by the terrain. The bulk of the baggage train was abandoned or burnt quite early in the encounter, so whatever force managed to make it to Kalkriese would probably have been accompanied by the bare essentials in this regard. 
 
Given the events of the days leading up to the final encounter at Kalkriese, I think the idea that the remnants of the Roman column had the kind of order you're envisaging is pretty unlikely. I'd place pretty heavy emphasis on the word 'remnants' there, as Dio also tells us that the majority of the casualties had already been sustained in the previous days' fighting. The force that made it to Kalkriese was likely to have been fairly small and in very bad shape after almost four days of sustained combat on the run in appalling conditions. I'm sure some order was still being maintained, but I certainly don't picture a formed column with a vanguard and a baggae train. 
 
As I understand it, most of the mule bones were recovered from the burial pit and from the depressions in which some bones were preserved, so I'm not sure how we can build up a picture of what forces assaulted the earthworks and where the Roman pack animals were at the time. There's no doubt that a mule skeleton was found under a collapsed portion of the wall, but how it got there is always going to be pure speculation. Perhaps it bolted in that direction during, or after, the fighting. Or perhaps the Roman force, on finding their path blocked at both ends, decided that making a break through the earthworks at a weak point and fighting their way up the slopes of the Kalkrieseberg was the only way to escape - with our mule a casualty of the abortive breakout. The fact that this mule's bronze bell had straw wrapped around its clapper to muffle it certainly indicates that the Romans were trying to sneak somewhere with the animal at some point, but we can play this game of 'build a story from the scanty evidence' a hundred different ways. I still can't see that this evidence substantially contradicts the idea that this was the site of Varus' last stand. 
 
With some simple mathematics, one soon calculates that if the head of the Roman column contacted the Germans at "the berm", the baggage train would be so far back, thattheir location could no longer be considered at "Kalkreise". Is there a plausible explanation for this that I somehow 
missed? Please, I want "to believe" too! 
 
I actually have little desire "to believe" - I'm more interested in what the (scanty) available evidence can tell us. Based on that evidence I think it's reasonable to assume that the force that made it to Kalkriese was a remnant of the one which had originally set out from the Weser and that it's likely it was not in great shape. What size it was, what order it had and where its pack animals were in the line of march (if, indeed it still had that degree of cohesion) are all things we simply can't know. 
 
If we begin our doubts at this stage, everything else unravels as well. The fact that a few medical instruments were found hardly indicates this was the legionary medical staff. Such instruments are common finds at even small Roman posts. I suspect every Roman century had some medical instruments and a detailed medical orderly. I also suspect some soldiers had some of these instruments in their own kit for such mundane tasks as removing splinters or scooping earwax from ears. I wouldn't be surprised if every Roman contubernium had a shared set of a few basic instruments. Every Roman century probably had some surveying instruments too ... 
 
Fine, and I've already agreed that these artefacts aren't conclusive proof that the force destroyed at Kalkriese wasn't a detachment caught up in the rebellion rather than part of, or the core remnants of, Varus' main column. Taken together with other evidence, however, this remains a very reasonable conclusion. A detachment may have included surveyors, clerks, surgeons, craftsmen or people who at least used their equipment. But if this was a remnant of Varus' main force, and one centred on the surviving senior commanders and standard bearers and therefore the focus of Arminius' final assaults, then we'd expect just these ancilliary elements to be represented. These finds are good indicators that this hypothesis is sound, without making it anything like a certainty. I don't think anyone (other than 'true believers') has ever said it was a certainty. 
 
... and a possible bit off of a piece of higher grade furniture hardly suggests it came off of "Varus's personal litter". Has a "Roman litter" ever been positively found before, to suggest the provenance of the piece in question? 
 
Apparently the fitting in question is analogous to a similar piece found at Haltern. Anyone who claims it was from "Varus' personal litter" is being fanciful, but the conclusion that it was from a higher-ranking officer's kit is reasonable and further supports the idea that some of those who died at Kalkriese were senior Roman commanders, which further supports the idea that command elements were amongst those killed there. Until we find something with 'P. Quinctilius Varus was here' carved on it, we can't conclude that Varus was definitely amongst them. 
 
The apparent, complete disintrigration of thousands of bones seems a bit of a cop-out as well, especially since they are reasonalbly well presevered where they have found them. I am sure they have among their equipment Ground-penetrating radar, and if all of the bones "sadly disintrigrated", they could still locate the alledged burial pits by these means. This is especially so, since they already found a few pits, so they would know exactly what anomolies to look for in the print outs. If there are more burial pits there, teeth and the most resilient bone fragments would certainly still be there. 
 
And perhaps they are, and perhaps further excavations will find them. But you still seem to be assuming that Varus' force was substantially intact when it reached Kalkriese - I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Large numbers of the Roman force would have died, become separated from the command elements or have made a break for it (like Vala's unit) long before then, so the force that was finally pinned down at Kalkriese may well have been fairly small. Substantial numbers of this reduced force would have died in the final stages of the fighting, but we know that at least some survived and were captured. Some of these were later massacred, others sacrificed and others taken as slaves. Of those that were killed in the fighting, we know their bones were exposed to the elements and scavengers for some years before some of them were burined by Germanicus' men - and it's unlikely this was anything like all of them. Then at least some of those buried were dug up again by the Germanics after Germanicus withdrew, and some of them were reburied by a second Roman expedition years later still. Given the probable small size of the force at Kalkriese in the first place (not 20,000 men, that's for certain), the fact that not all of them were killed, the fact their remains lay exposed, were buried, were exposed again and then were reburied and the fact that substantial areas of the site were not condusive to the preservation of organic material, I'd actually be rather more surprised if we did find the remains of 'thousands' of dead Romans. The extent of the finds of human remains seems quite logical and in keeping with what we know about the site and the sequence of events before their deposit. It's actually much more surprising that we have the amount of human remains we've found at all. 
 
I could go on and on, but there is no point. As in religion, true "believers" will always have faith despite the evidence to the contrary, and "sceptics" will be damned for their alledged heresay. I'm a "believer" too though. I have great faith that even under the worst of cirumstances, and the (Teutoburger debacle had to be one of the worst), that the Roman army was still too professional to attack a fortified position blocking their escape and salvation, with their baggage train (and provincial governor's litter). 
 
Determining who attacked where and with what is quite beyond the evidence available to us. Taking that evidence into account, I'd say that the idea that a remnant force centred on Varus and his officers tried to take the route around the Kalkrieseberg to find their way back to the Lippe, was ambushed from a prepared position, cut off, pinned against the moorlands and destroyed is a reasonable one given the nature of the archaeological finds and the accounts we have of Varus' last stand. Whether this idea is actually absolutely true is something we're unlikely to ever know, of course, but I still find it more convincing than any of the alternative interpretations that I've seen so far. 
 
I'm also a 'sceptic' in the true sense of the word - someone who assesses the evidence and makes a provisional judgement based on their understanding of it. So feel free to present any arguments you like - I'd be very interested to hear them since I am not a 'true believer' or anything like one. And its discussions like this which test opposing ideas and so are fruitful to open-minded inquirers on both sides. 
Cheers Dan, 
 
 
Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 

Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project

more doubts - Daniel S Peterson - 03-05-2002

Greetings again Tim, It was past midnight when I "ran out of steam" with my other posting, but wanted to add a couple more points. Before I begin "round two" though, wanted to comment on the films. I have never seen "lost Legions" either, but I wouldn't build your hopes up about it. From what the 2d Augusta chaps said, not a lot of the "reenactment footage was used. Although a lot of the Roman kit is great, it is mostly too late for 9AD. I offered to bring about 30 period correct helmets,(Gallic As, several different Coolus and Montefortinos) but no one offered any compensation at all if I did, and since they were brand new, I couldn't afford to make them "used" for nothing. Now you will see 2nd century ad helmets with cross reinforcements, etc. Really a shame, as this could have been one of the most authentic (albeit tiny) Roman films ever done (light years ahead of Gladiator in any case). If you do see it, I am also a mounted staff officer riding next to "Varus" and a German "war band" leader wearing a mail shirt and bearskin. 
 
But back to the "real thing", actually, maybe we are not that far off in agreement. As you quoted Dr. Schluter, he, and presumably most German archaeologists seem to make the claim that Kalkreise was indeed the "main battle", whereas you stated that the site was more probably a smaller group which broke off from the main body and battle and were stopped here. Is that right? I could almost believe that. 
 
Besides the Roman "attack mules" which seem to have fallen directly in the midst of the German fortifications, given either your scenario or the main German one, why would a cart or mule laden with Roman furniture also manage to end up so close to the "final conflict" at the German defensive works? When one considers how desperate the situation was, why drag a "couch" that far? Also, what about all the broken Roman ceramics? Do you really think Roman soldiers desperately fighting for their lives, were still carrying heavy pottery water jugs with them by that point? The only thing that makes sense, and matches the archaological record is the "outpost" theory. This explains the defensive works, as well as the furniture and pottery, it all spells Roman CAMP. Here's a more plausible explanation for the entire assemblage of Kalkreise finds: 
 
a Roman detachment was posted at this critical chokepoint/terrain feature. Tacitus claims there were "outosts like this. They may not have even built defenses in the beginning, but had a camp there, maybe even a sub-depot. This explains why there are nails, parts of furniture and broken pottery.... every indication that Roman soldiers were camped there. 
 
When first news of the uprising came, the soldiers probably built the hasty fortification, and grouped behind it with mules packed to effect an escape if necessary. Perhaps there was an initial sortie with the Germans, perhaps not. In any case, the detachment decided to make their escape around the Kalkriese Berg and left their scant trail of artifacts behind them. They padded the mules' bells to help escape detection and fled in the night. They were probably immediately discovered however, because the first mule was killed right outside the works. It was then a running battle marked by the recovered artifacts. Perhaps some escaped and returned to the site to bury their comrades bones, perhaps they didn't, but considering the battle lay on an important route, it stands to reason that the Romans passed by that area again, and gave the bones they could find a decent burial. 
 
This really makes the most sense. The problem with any other scenario means that the Kalkreise finds must trace back to the main battlefield somewhere in the vicinity which still hasn't been found, despite the determined efforts of both archaeologists and an "army" of metal detector enthusiasts. Either that, or you believe Dr. Schluter's claim that Kalkreise IS the main battlefield, and that the defensive berm blocked the Roman main advance (with attack mules in the vanguard, laden with furniture and pottery vessels). I think we both agree that the artifacts and geography can't support that. 
 
It is amazing that the "Kalkreise as main battlefield" supporters cannot grasp how much space an army of 20,000 would take up in a march column on say a three meter wide pathway. It would probably extend 20 miles or more, and there would be large concentrations of artifacts everywhere the Germans attacked along the whole route. As I said before, even if the Cherusci scrupulously gathered every bit of metal they could find, it would be impossible for them to find it all without an electronic metal detector. Also, if the defensive works were the "start" of the ambush, which is also the official German line, the baggage train couldn't be anywhere near that point, unless they were at the very front of the column, which is completely implausible. This whole thing reminds me of Heinrich Schlieman and Troy. He wanted to believe he found Homer's "Troy" so badly, that he threw all caution and common sense to the wind, and is ridiculed today for his mistakes. I would hate to see the same thing happen with the excavators of Kalkreise. Even as only an outpost from the time of the Varus disaster, it tells an exciting story with some significant artifacts. For this alone, the site deserves a museum. But when the "real" Varus battlefield is found, perhaps 50 to 100 km further east, and with no connection at all to the Kalkreise site, it will probably cause a scandal, as I am sure the bureaucrats holding the purse strings had been convinced Kalkreise was "the real Varus battle" and spent the funds accordingly. The amount of artifacts which will be found on the real site will likely be totally overwhelming, and make the supporters who claim Kalkriese IS the Varus battle feel extremely foolish for "making a mountain out of a molehill", if I use the quaint American expression. 
 
All the best, Dan.

minor battle. Psychology of danger. - Goffredo - 03-06-2002

I tend to agree with Dan's considerations and think that Karkriese was a minor battle of the general uprising of Germany. 
 
I not sure about the argument concerning useless items and whether they would have been abandoned earlier by the Romans in the real Clades Variana. There are many instances of military and civilian history and controlled psychological tests that document that the perception of danger is very complex and that group mechanisms may keep the individual from making decisions that a posteriori would seem more "rational". For the moment, what I am driving is that I don't think we can understand what happened on the basis of a "what I would do" approach but maybe should look for parallels in military history. How and when does a disciplined and well organized group of men fall apart? How long do the individuals continue to grasp tightly to their training and ritualized behaviour, which includes insisting on carrying items useful for normal amry life (not pitched battle) and personal belongings? Personal belongings are dead weight and one should drop them in a moment of danger, but this simply doesn't occur except at the very last (too late) moment. Normal Army life rules, burocracy, regulations and repetitive behaviour are not pitched-battle-useful and they too don't get dropped easily when real fighting starts, especially when the group hasn't seen fighting for some time. Germany had been "pacified" and the Roman preparedness for pitched fighting was not high. That doesn't mean they weren't disciplined or fit. It means that their ability to deal with sudden danger was not tuned to perfection.

Re: more doubts - Thiudareiks Flavius - 03-06-2002

Dan wrote: 
 
I have never seen "lost Legions" either, but I wouldn't build your hopes up about it. From what the 2d Augusta chaps said, not a lot of the "reenactment footage was used. Although a lot of the Roman kit is great, it is mostly too late for 9AD. 
 
I noticed that from the stills that I've seen. It's certainly a pity, but it's still good to see the Varus story being brought to a wider audience. The day after it went to air in the UK hits to my site shot up by 600%, so clearly a lot of people who saw it then hit the net to find out more. 
 
If you do see it, I am also a mounted staff officer riding next to "Varus" and a German "war band" leader wearing a mail shirt and bearskin. 
 
So it seems they maintained the 'furry barbarian' cliche as well (heavy sigh). 
 
But back to the "real thing", actually, maybe we are not that far off in agreement. As you quoted Dr. Schluter, he, and presumably most German archaeologists seem to make the claim that Kalkreise was indeed the "main battle", whereas you stated that the site was more probably a smaller group which broke off from the main body and battle and were stopped here. Is that right? I could almost believe that. 
 
Not quite. My belief is that the force at Kalkriese was a remnant of the main force - ie part of what was left of Varus' army after three days of attrition. I also feel there's good evidence that this remnant included the command elements of Varus' army and was thus the focus of Arminius' final assaults. I've only read the English paper written by Schluter on Kalkriese, but I didn't get the impression from it that Schluter believes that the 'whole' Varus army fought at Kalkriese or that Kalkriese was the site of the original ambush - quite the opposite in fact. Tony Clunn consulted closely with Schluter, and his interpretation matches mine quite closely. If there are others who believe that Kalkriese was the site of the 'main battle' or the site of the first attacks, then I disagree strongly with them, but I don't see anything in either Schluter or Clunn's writings which indicates either of them fall into this camp at all. 
 
Besides the Roman "attack mules" which seem to have fallen directly in the midst of the German fortifications, given either your scenario or the main German one, why would a cart or mule laden with Roman furniture also manage to end up so close to the "final conflict" at the German defensive works? 
 
Well, as I mentioned before, my understanding is that there was only one mule found at the wall, and we simply can't say how it got there. The other mule bones were found elsewhere on the site, especially in association with the deposits of human bones. I can't see how we can hypothesise where the mules or other baggage elements were in relation to the fighting, or reconstruct any of the tactical sequence of events given the nature of this evidence. I also have no idea where the 'couch' was during the fighting, or even where the fitting from it was found, so a hypothesis regarding couch-laden attack mules assaulting the wall doesn't really seem warranted on any level, except as comedy. I certainly don't think this hypothesis is any kind of telling argument against Schluter's conclusions. 
 
When one considers how desperate the situation was, why drag a "couch" that far? 
 
I can think of all kinds of answers, but they'd all be based on fiction. The short answer is we don't know why and probably never will, but the presence of the couch is hardly a good reason to disregard the Schluter hypothesis. 
 
Also, what about all the broken Roman ceramics? Do you really think Roman soldiers desperately fighting for their lives, were still carrying heavy pottery water jugs with them by that point? 
 
Is that what the pottery was? And can we know, at a distance of 2000 years, what they would have thought was worth taking with them? Or the circumstances in which the decision was made as to what to take or what to abandon? Or what was left behind which was even more superfluous? Or what was brought simply out of habit by an army used to packing and unpacking all their gear to make a standing camp every night? Or what 'inessential' items found their way into the 'essential' gear in a confused and hurried process of selection and packing? Or even how 'essential' these pottery items were considered to be by their users, even if they seem superfluous to us? 
 
The only thing that makes sense, an matches the archaological record is the "outpost" theory. 
This explains the defensive works, as well as the furniture and pottery, it all spells Roman CAMP. 
 
I'm afraid I remain unconvinced that this the ' only thing that makes sense' at all. The wall certainly doesn't spell 'Roman CAMP' to me for example. Why would a centuria on the defensive build a wall nealy 2 kilometers long facing the slopes of the Kalkrieseberg, but leave either end of the 'Kalkriese funnel' (ie their flanks) - the very places where they could expect attacks to come from - undefended? If this was a Roman camp, why don't we find the kind of classic enclosure that is described by Roman historians as being the standard for Roman camps, which we find on sites of other 'marching camps' excavated in Germania and which was warranted by the tactical situation? What kind of situation can you imagine where a centuria attacked, or in danger of being attacked, by a force of rebels would respond by building a 2 kilometer long wall? If the Germanics attacked the Roman force as it rounded the eastern flank of the Kalkrieseberg, as the debris trail seems to indicate and then drove them into the 'funnel' between the mountain and the moorlands, where a second force waited to ambush the Romans, while retreating behind their wall if the Romans counterattacked, then this structure makes sense. As a defensive structure built by the Romans it seems to be make no sense at all. 
 
Here's a more plausible explanation for the entire assemblage of Kalkreise finds: 
a Roman detachment was posted at this critical chokepoint/terrain feature. Tacitus claims there were "outosts like this. They may not have even built defenses in the beginning, but had a camp there, maybe even a sub-depot. This explains why there are nails, parts of furniture and broken pottery.... every indication that Roman soldiers were camped there. 
 
When first news of the uprising came, the soldiers probably built the hasty fortification, and grouped behind it with mules packed to effect an escape if necessary. Perhaps there was an initial sortie with the Germans, perhaps not. In any case, the detachment decided to make their escape around the Kalkriese Berg and left their scant trail of artifacts behind them. They padded the mules' bells to help escape detection and fled in the night. They were probably immediately discovered however, because the first mule was 
killed right outside the works. It was then a running battle marked by the recovered artifacts. Perhaps some escaped and returned to the site to bury their comrades bones, perhaps they didn't, but considering the battle lay on an important route, it stands to reason that the Romans passed by that area again, and gave the bones they could find a decent burial. 
 
This really makes the most sense. 
 
I can see a couple of problems with it. Firstly, if the wall was built in expectation of attack, then it is a very strange 'defensive' structure for a small Roman force waiting for an attack. Surely an enclosure would make more sense, rather than an extremely long wall running parallel to the main route through the 'funnel'. Secondly, if the mules were packed ready for a breakout, then your hypothesis is open to some of the same questions you've asked above. I can see how remnants of a baggage train of an army attacked on the march may still be on the move with a body of that army as it tried to break out of the ambushes, which explains why some 'non-essential' items like the couch and the pottery were still in tow. But why would your centuria, preparing to break through hostile forces and run for their lives, decide to take ivory-inlaid couches and pottery jars with them? This is as odd as building 2 kms of open ended walls as a 'defence'. This hypothesis seems a bit creaky to me. 
 
The problem with any other scenario means that the Kalkreise finds must trace back to the main battlefield somewhere in the vicinity which still hasn't been found, despite the determined efforts of both archaeologists and an "army" of metal detector enthusiasts. 
 
I'm not sure I understand what this 'main battlefield' is though. Do you mean the site of the first ambushes three to four days before? If so, I can't see that this 'site' - and it's unlikely to have been a single place, given the size of a marching column of 20,000 men in confined terrain - would be easily identifiable. Varus' column would have been attacked at several points along its length and Dio reports that the initial attacks were more harrassment than full-blooded assaults. He also says that as the first day of attacks wore on, and it became clear that the Romans were too confused and confined to counter-attack properly, they became more intense and more deadly. This continued for three days, with only the attempted Roman counter-attack on the second day standing out as any kind of 'battle'. How large this counter-attacking force was, how disrupted the Roman column was at this stage and over how wide an area this stage of the operation ranged we don't know. 
 
So I'm not sure there is a 'main battlefield' to find. We don't where Varus' original summer camp was, the route he took, at what stage on it the original ambushes took place or how spread out they were. But it's reasonable to assume there was no 'main battle' to begin with - just a series of initially sporadic attacks which gained in intensity and effectiveness as the Roman column weakened and disintergrated and the Germanic forces grew stronger and more confident of success. Maybe (hopefully) we'll get lucky and find some evidence of these actions, but we can't count on the conditions for preservation of remains of this running fight being as favourable as the ones at Kalkriese. 
 
Either that, or you believe Dr. Schluter's claim that Kalkreise IS the main battlefield, and that the defensive berm blocked the Roman main advance (with attack mules in the vanguard, laden with furniture and pottery vessels). 
 
As I've said, that's not my understanding of Schluter's position. And I don't think the evidence warrants any assumption of pottery-laden attack mules. 
 
I think we both agree that the artifacts and geography can't support that. 
 
I agree entirely with you there. 
 
It is amazing that the "Kalkreise as main battlefield" supporters cannot grasp how much space an army of 
20,000 would take up in a march column on say a three meter wide pathway. It would probably extend 20 miles or more, and there would be large concentrations of artifacts everywhere the Germans attacked along the whole route. 
 
Fine, though I've yet to read anyone claiming Kalkriese was the 'main battlefield'. The final battlefield certainly, but that's something else again. 
 
As I said before, even if the Cherusci scrupulously gathered every bit of metal they could find, it would be impossible for them to find it all without an electronic metal detector. 
 
Okay, but given the Cherusci and their allies probably did a pretty good job of scavenging the remains of the earlier attacks, we'd need fluke preservation conditions for us to find substantial evidence of the earlier stages of the battle. And even with such conditions, the concentration of finds Kalkriese still lay undetected for 2000 years. Its only been 15 years since we found those, so it's not surprising we've not yet found evidence of the earlier attacks. Maybe they've been overlooked because they aren't as concentrated, or well-preserved or both. Or maybe we've just been looking in the wrong places so far. I hope our luck changes. 
 
Also, if the defensive works were the "start" of the ambush, which is also the official German line, the baggage train couldn't be anywhere near that point, unless they were at the very front of the column, which is completely implausible. 
 
Again, I don't know anyone who thinks Kalkriese was the site of the first ambush, since that was three to four days before the 'last stand', so I suspect this is a bit of a straw man argument. And one mule under the wall isn't enough to sustain any hypothesis as to where the baggage elements were at any stage, though if the remnant force at Kalkriese was marching parallel to the wall when the final attack came, which is reasonable to suppose, I can't see any problem with the odd (non-attack) mule getting caught up in the fighting. 
 
I suspect you're loading rather too much weighty argument on that poor mule's back. Leave the animal alone man - it's been dead for 2000 years! 
 
This whole thing reminds me of Heinrich Schlieman and Troy. He wanted to believe he found Homer's "Troy" so badly, that he threw all caution and common sense to the wind, and is ridiculed today for his mistakes. I would hate to see the same thing happen with the excavators of Kalkreise. Even as only an outpost fromthe time of the Varus disaster, it tells an exciting story wit some significant artifacts. For this alone, the site deserves a museum. 
 
When I first heard of the Kalkriese finds and the conclusions being drawn I was initially very sceptical. After all, 'discoveries' of the site of the 'Varusschlaut' are like UFO sightings in German archaeology and the Kalkriese hypothesis simply seemed too good to be true. I understand your reservations and caution, and I share them to an extent, but then again - sometimes we just get lucky. 
 
But when the "real" Varus battlefield is found, perhaps 50 to 100 km further east, and with no connection at all to the Kalkreise site, it will probably cause a scandal, as I am sure the bureaucrats holding the purse strings had been convinced Kalkreise was "the real Varus battle" and spent the funds accordingly. The amount of artifacts which will be found on the real site will likely be totally overwhelming, and make the supporters who claim Kalkriese IS the Varus battle feel extremely foolish for "making a mountain out of a molehill", if I use the quaint American expression. 
 
Well, if that happened then I'd be delighted (and the bureaucrats can go and get stuffed). But I'd be surprised if any 'real battle site' is going to be found. I do hold out a real hope that some evidence of the earlier attacks on the Roman column will be found though and then it will be interesting to see how they relate to the Kalkriese finds, if at all. 
 
As you can probably tell Dan, I love a good argument and I hope the odd lame joke in what I've written above indicates that I'm enjoying this discussion and not taking it too seriously. I wouldn't die in a ditch (or a Germanic swamp) defending the Kalkriese hypothesis like it was the Aquila of the XIX, and I find your alternative interesting, but I must say I'm still unconvinced. 
Cheers, 
Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 

Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project

Re: round III - Daniel S Peterson - 03-06-2002

Okay, Tim, I think we have ground to a stalement for now, but just wanted to add that in my theory, the couch pottery, instruments ect. were not on the pack mules to be evacuated, but instead, were simply found in the camp area. Even if only a centurion were in charge of the "camp" the ivory inlaid couch-bed could have belonged to him, and not Varus or a another high ranking officer who thought enough to drag it along through 3 days of fighting. The piece of furniture may have been very valuable when it was made, it it is hard to surmise its condition at the time of loss, Perhaps it was in poor condition, damaged, or even long out of "style" and could have been affordable for a centurion, who may have had a wagon to haul it, his tent and other camp equippage. Making this the last stand with things like pottery and furniture still in tow, after three to four days make this all the more unlikely. 
 
Anyway, only time, and further discoveries will prove who's really right. Just hope what I believe is the real ambush/battle much further east is documented before you make the movie, so you can adjust the story accordingly. I have second and third hand stories,rumours of much more material than what's at Kalrkreise being found out there, including at least one period Roman helmet (that I have seen). Secrets like that are hard to keep, and the "bombshell" will probably drop soon. 
 
I will be "off the net" (army jargon) the next few day, but when I'm back I'll drop a line to your site with some suggestions and comments (other than battlefield location of course). 
 
All the best, Dan.

Dan - Anonymous - 03-07-2002

yep Dan...it was me that swiped your phalarae 
 
:-)

more doubts? - Robert Vermaat - 03-21-2002

Hi Dan, 
I'v been reading your posts with great intrest. However, I'd like to make a few suggestions: 
 
- the fortification. 
I can only agree with Tim, the missing defensive ditch is very damning, don't you think? Even when created in haste, Roman soldiers constructed every wall by digging a ditch at the same time, so how would you explain they did not do so now? And even if this were an outpost, it would have been surrounded by a defensive circuit, right? So where's that one gone? Besides, it is unlike any other known Roman wall. Yes, that includes Hadrian's and the Antonine walls 
 
-the site. 
Actually, I'm intriqued to bits by your hints! Apparently, you know of (a) site(s) where loads more finds have turned up. Darn the bombshell - hy not tell us and get it over with?! :-) 
But I agree with Tim again, apart from this one being the main and only thing, it *could* still be a last stand for a breakaway part of the main group. How sure re you of the date of the finds at these 'much more eastwards' site(s)? A different solution might be that this was not the Varus battle, but an undocumented one, or else your mystery site(s) might be. 
 
-the mules 
Not meaning to continue flogging a dead mule, could it not be possible that the attackers first built the wall, allowed the main train to get there, and be stopped in a traffic-jam, and *then* mount the ambush? Finds east of that point could be explained by the lenght of the marching column. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Robert Vermaat 
Vortigern Studies 
www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/ 
Wansdyke Project 21 
www.wansdyke21.org.uk/ 
Robert's Arthurian Collection 
www.geocities.com/vortige...grarth.htm

Re: Kalkriese and the Clades Variana - Guest - 03-21-2002

Salve, 
 
Regarding the Roman mule it should be noted that while the main baggage train of a legion followed behind the unit or at the end, the baggage of the army's senior commanders could placed in the van (Josephus, Bellum Judaicum 3.115-126; 547-49). Thus even when the marching formation was not in disarray the presence of pack animals with a vanguard may not have been out of place. Taking into account that the column may have been under attack for some days, the retention of the baggage animals would have made sense. The carrying capacity of a mule (rated in the present day Swiss army at 150 kg, of which 30 kg are used for tack and carrying frames, leaving 120 kg of payload) would make it worthwhile to keep them around as a single animal would allow several soldiers to march unencumbered by their personal packs and ready for action. Leaving all pack animals behind would mean that individual soldiers would have to carry more on their person and would be impeded by baggage. Another consideration for taking along the mules would be their potential as a food source: a furca might admittedly be rich in fibres, but would otherwise compare poorly in nutritional value to a pack animal which could be slaughtered when other food stuffs would run out. As self propelled rations able to take some weight off the back of the troops mules would offer enough advantages not to abandon them. 
 
Regards, 
 
Sander van Dorst 
 
Addendum 
 
According to this US publication mules are rated as capable of carrying 200 to 250 pounds (about 90 to 113 kilo). Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=sandervandorst>Sander van Dorst</A> at: 3/21/02 4:55:21 pm

Kalkreise, etc. - Daniel S Peterson - 03-21-2002

Robert, 
I wish I could tell you too! I think these diggers fear I am too "connected" with the "archaeological hierarchy" to divulge their hunting grounds. I can say that the interesting Coolus helmet will be published and that archaeologically-sympathetic collectors are watching for anything else of importance. Everything I have heard is still second and third hand, but the helmet is real. 
 
Regarding Kalkreise, lack of a ditch can be as easily explained as the "detachment" not having enough pioneering tools to perform the task. Perhaps most were sent to "the front" with Varus where they were needed more. The hasty embankment of turfs could have been cut with swords. The ditch in the back, suggested to be for water control may have been an afterthought when they had more time than they realized. For this to have been made by the Germans makes little sense, especially if this was a "spur of the moment" embankment erected perhaps just hours before it was determined a fleeing enemy would go that way. Such a feature could hardly have been camoflaged, and "tipping" the Romans off with their presence makes little sense. Even if we believe Sanders theory that the dead mule right on the works was part of the vanguard, there still must have been scouts and fighting units a considerable distance ahead of the mules. That the mule would be "led" right up to a defensive work bristling with Barbarians seem inconceivable as well. 
 
That the "roadside camp" identified by the pottery, furniture bits, etc should not be fortified comes to no surprise if we believe Tacitus' observation that some of these detachments actually "lived" in Germanic villages with nothing to suggest the "moated and pallisaded" the houses which became their quarters. 
 
Another point which throws water on the "Varus scenario" is that in this "life or death" ambush situation some Romans had the time to bury hoards of Denarii. This would make perfect since if this had been a camp, but not in the midst of an ambush. 
 
But the worst thing of all about connecting this to the true Varus battle is that the battle debris field leads nowhere else. It just peters out completely. Because of the farmlands now were marshes then, the roman columns likely stayed on the forested hills as much as possible. These areas would have been little changed since Varus' time, and if this were part of the Varus army, other, even larger masses of remains would certainly be found in the vicinity. In fact, nothing else of consequence is being found despite intensive searching by both archaeologists and presumably hundreds of private enthusiasts who have flocked to the area since it first announcement. No matter how hard the battlefield may have been scrutinized, because the ancients had no metal detectors, when the main battle site is found, it must yield incredible amounts more of battlefield debris than the "small affair" at Kalkreise. 
 
I'm sorry, there's just no way this can be "it". But the good news is that "its" still out there somewhere waiting to be found. Dan.

Re: Kalkreise, etc. - Thiudareiks Flavius - 03-22-2002

Dan wrote: 
 
I can say that the interesting Coolus helmet will be published and that archaeologically-sympathetic collectors are watching for anything else of importance. Everything I have heard is still second and third hand, but the helmet is real. 
 
Interesting. Do you know where this helmet was found in relation to Kalkriese? 
 
Regarding Kalkreise, lack of a ditch can be as easily explained as the "detachment" not having enough 
pioneering tools to perform the task. 
 
?? Yet they had enough pioneering tools to build a 2 km long wall? How could they achieve this and yet be unable to dig a ditch? This is very strange, since these troops were tained to both build a wall and dig a ditch when they encamped each night, and to do so with minimal tools. 
 
Perhaps most were sent to "the front" with Varus where they were needed more. 
 
But what 'front' are you thinking of here? Varus was marching to put down the rebels when the uprising proper began, the detachments were attacked and overwhelmed and the attacks on the main column began. At what stage in this sequence of events did some of your 'detachment' get dispatched to 'the front' and where or what was this 'front'? 
 
The hasty embankment of turfs could have been cut with swords. The ditch in the back, suggested to be for water control may have been an afterthought when they had more time than they realized. For this to have been made by the Germans makes little sense, especially if this was a "spur of the moment" embankment erected perhaps just hours before it was determined a fleeing enemy would go that way. 
 
This 'hasty embankment of turfs' had a core of chalk blocks. I'm not sure how long it would take your detachment of 150-200 troops to build a 2 km long wall of this kind, or how long it would take a larger detachment of Arminius' force, but while it was certainly built quickly, it is rather more than something thrown up in a few hours out of turves cut with swords. 
 
That it was made by the Germanics with the deliberate intention of luring the remnants of Varus' army in that direction, allowing them to try to escape towards the Lippe via the Kalkriese 'funnel' and then pinning them between the earthworks and the marsh makes perfect sense to me. More sense than a detachment of Romans building a huge wall that covered a 2 km front but left their flanks - the very direction an attack could be expected - completely exposed. 
 
Such a feature could hardly have been camoflaged, and "tipping" the Romans off with their presence makes little sense. 
 
No, but a feigned retreat in the direction of the 'funnel might, in some circumstances, have lured them into the trap. Or if the Romans were in really bad shape by this stage, which I believe they would have been, an attack from the south and east as they approached the Kalkriese Berg could have driven them into the funnel as they 
sought a way to escape. The there are all sorts of other things we don't know - like what the weather conditions were like and therefore what the visibility available was etc. 
 
Even if we believe Sanders theory that the dead mule right on the works was part of the vanguard ... 
 
Which fits with my interpretation nicely - what we see at Kalkriese is the remains of a remnant of Varus' army which included the senior command elements, which is why it was the target of this last ambush. It retained some baggage elements for the reasons Sander has laid out and amongst this baggage were some items which simply hadn't been 'culled' in the hasty process of deciding what to abandon, or which were still being lugged along on some officer's whim. There was an article in the paper in the wake of the Sydney bushfires at Christmas about what items people grabbed from their homes as 20 m walls of fire swept towards their homes. Some items were highly sensible and expected - family photos, stock certificates, wills, university degrees, bank books etc. Others, in calm retrospect, made no sense at all - vacuum cleaners, a juice machine, or a bedside lamp. People are funny that way. 
 
... there still must have been scouts and fighting units a considerable distance ahead of the mule That the mule would be "led" right up to a defensive work bristling with Barbarians seem inconceivable as well. 
 
Dan, you are still loading a lot of argument on the back of that single dead mule. It strikes me as a fairly weak 'strawman argument' to declare that the mule 'led' some attack (which is, as you say, fairly silly) and then declare this silly scenario to be silly and therefore the whole 'Kalkriese=Varuschlaut' hypothesis collapses. 
 
We have absolutely no idea how that mule got under the wall, where it was in relation to the rest of the column, at what stage of the action it got there, whether it was led there, bolted there or even if it's 
corpse was dragged there after the battle. To say that the ONLY explanation is that it was overwhelmed in an initial attack and that this is silly or impossible and therefore this can't have been Varus' army is, at best, highly strained. At worst, it's highly contrived. 
 
That the "roadside camp" identified by the pottery, furniture bits, etc should not be fortified comes to no surprise if we believe Tacitus' observation that some of these detachments actually "lived" in Germanic villages with nothing to suggest the "moated and pallisaded" the houses which became their quarters. 
 
Okay, but there's no village in this case. And there is that very odd 2 km long wall, which remains a peculiar thing for the troops in this 'roadside camp' (with no sign of any camp) to decide to build, with some effort, in their circumstances. 
 
Another point which throws water on the "Varus scenario" is that in this "life or death" ambush situation some 
Romans had the time to bury hoards of Denarii. This would make perfect since if this had been a camp, but not in the midst of an ambush. 
 
What evidence is there that any of the multiple coin finds were 'buried'? 
 
But the worst thing of all about connecting this to the true Varus battle is that the battle debris field leads nowhere else. It just peters out completely. Because of the farmlands now were marshes then, the roman columns likely stayed on the forested hills as much as possible. These areas would have been little changed since Varus' time, and if this were part of the Varus army, other, even larger masses of remains would certainly be found in the vicinity. In fact, nothing else of consequence is being found despite intensive searching by both archaeologists and presumably hundreds of private enthusiasts who have flocked to the area since it first announcement. 
 
As I've pointed out before (i) there is no reason to believe that there is any 'main battle site' to be found, since the sources tell us the early stages of the battle were a series of ambushes of increasing intensity strung out over a long distance and spread over three to four days and (ii) since the Kalkriese site eluded us for 2000 years, it's hardly surprising that we haven't found anything definite to indicate any of the other encounters before the last stand. At Kalkriese we got very lucky regarding the conditions of preservation and we happened to find a concentration of artefacts - we'd have to be very lucky again to find more than scattered remains elsewhere (though your Coolus helmet and the other finds you've mentioned may be just such scattered remains of the earlier attacks) 
 
No matter how hard the battlefield may have been scrutinized, because the ancients had no metal detectors, when the main battle site is found, it must yield incredible amounts more of battlefield debris than the "small affair" at Kalkreise. 
 
This is assuming there is a 'main battle site' to find. I suspect there isn't, though there may have been places where a standing fight took place or where some other remnant force was fought to a standstill. Hopefully we will get lucky again and find some of these, or at least more scattered finds from along the line of the march prior to Kalkriese. 
 
I'm sorry, there's just no way this can be "it". But the good news is that "its" still out there somewhere waiting to be found. 
 
I think it's best to avoid flat, categorical statements like that - 'no way' strikes me as rather too definitive given the uncertain nature of the evidence. Given that uncertainty, I'd never say there's 'no way' Kalkriese is the remains of a detachment as you argue, but I still feel the 'remnant body with command elements' hypothesis fits the evidence better. 
 
My typing fingers are tired, so I'll stop now. 
Cheers Dan, 
 
Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius 

Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project

Re: Kalkreise, etc. - Robert Vermaat - 03-22-2002

Hi Dan, 
 
Darn about these diggers! 
 
I'm still not convinced by your ditch. My argument was that a 'roadside camp' or outpost, as is your suggestion, would also would have had a defensive circuit, which as I seem to recall was standard practise for the Roman Army, right? So why would there not have been any pioneers around by then? These camps may have been located in german villages, but that is not the case here. If this had been such a camp, it looks to me rather more like a travellers-stopover than anything organised. 
 
Even if your wartime/building-in-haste scenario would be true, why, having more time to improve the defences, would the troops decide to build a drainage ditch instead of that defensive ditch? Sorry, but the wall has more characteristics of non-Roman or at least non-Roman military builders. 
 
I have also a different view about the 'spur of the moment' construction. Looking at the geography, there is hardly another route for the Romans to choose, so their route would have been easy to guess a long time before. Even so, I guess that Arminius had prior knowledge from the Romans themselves, as he was still passing himself of as their ally by then. 
 
Hoards can be buried at any time when the owner is detached from the fighting. We are speaking of a very large Roman force here, crammed into a confined space, so not all the troops needed to have been engaged all the time. I simply cannot accept that no unit was able to form a defensive square and protect some troops within that area. Also, there must have been pauses in the fighting, every battle has periods of re-grouping and stand-offs. IMHO that would give some people plenty of time to replect their future and bury a hoard. 
 
About the 'petering out', I've heard very good explanations aas to that from archaeologists. They say (can't remember where, will look it up) that two different traces can be found. A larger one breaks out, but heads into the swamp and vanishes. A smaller one breaks out, and chooses the right terrain (not ALL was swamp west of the site), but is overwhelmed as well. The conclusion was that the smaller group chose rightly, but was just too small. It intrigues me mightily how those decisions were made! Looks like a real classic tregedy. 
 
Sorry, but before your diggers give their information up (and if you've not seen the site yourself, it could still be a hoax!), I must stick to this one... 
 
Cheers, 
 
Robert Vermaat 
[email protected] 
 
Vortigern Studies 
www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/ 
Wansdyke Project 21 
www.wansdyke21.org.uk/ 
Robert's Arthurian Collection 
www.geocities.com/vortige...grarth.htm

Re: Kalkreise, etc. - Anonymous - 03-22-2002

The all packed and ready to go mule explanation is very imaginative but it's only one imaginative explanation. 
Here's another one: actually that mule got wounded the day before. She kicked and reared and ran away from a very noisy, scary place. Mules are smart animals. They will do that. If they don't want you to find them, you won't. 
When things cooled down a couple of days later the mule came back to the last place where she had seen "the herd", men and other animals. Mules will do that too. Actually people will do that as well. She wandered around and exhausted by lack of food and loss of blood, she died there in solitude, or maybe finished off by the numerous scavengers that must have gathered in the place after the massacre. 
I can find a dozen other valid explanations in the next 24 hours. 
Like the mule was a civilian, not a military pack animal. 
But well, that mule makes me think that the logistical problems have been neglected here, as well as testimonies about instances of general panic in roman camps under siege, like Sabinus and Cotta in Caesar's commentaries. The role of the civilians has been totally neglected too, as well as the fact that this ditch was probably only part of a system. 
Methink that Varus' "offensive" operation (quelling a rebellion) was as much an offensive as Napoleon's russian retreat was one. 
Then things begin to make more sense than the politically correct version given by the ancient sources. 
But I'm at work and my boss wants me to do just that, for some reason beyond me, so I'll develop later in the privacy of my own hibernia.

Re: Kalkreise, etc. - Anonymous - 03-22-2002

OK: since we are working on many assumptions here, a caveat: these are assumptions. 
-On the way in, Varus left with three legions, cavalry, auxiliaries --six cohorts according to ancient sources-- and a great number of civilians. That is a huge crowd. It has been assumed he spent the summer in the Weser area. In a region known as the Westphalian Gates according to Delbruck. The place he suggests is certainly strategically located. 
-I assume he planned to actually winter there, for the first time. Hence the civilians, but there are many other clues. 
-That was the first step towards establishing probably a colony of veterans, itself being the first step towards further extending the limes to the Elbe, visited earlier by Drusus. This was age-old, regular roman practice. There is a fascinating book about that called "The creation of the roman frontier". Don't remember the author. 
-Yes, veterans. In 9 AD, In the imagination of the ageing Augustus and his courtiers, Germania capta was, and had been for the last twenty years or so. 
-To winter there with such a crowd, it is obvious that Varus needed enormous amount of food. These foodstuffs could come partially through the regular line of communication from Vetera: by ship up the Rhine to the Lippe, then up the Lippe towards Aliso, probably modern Haltern, where a fortified depot --not a legionary fortress-- has been found, then by land across a pass called the Doren pass towards the Weser. But the bulk would have to come from the area around the summer camp on the Weser area. 
-The cohorts and the magistrates sent to "administer justice" among the clans were also probably in charge of gathering supplies for the upcoming winter as well. 
-Then the cohorts and magistrates vanish into thin air, and news of "a rebellion" arrive. Brilliant coordination. Arminius was a smart man, the news he gave Varus were certainly vague and totally misleading. 
-We get the end result of a very worried governor Varus, probably under pressure from very worried merchants and other influential equestrian and senatorial types having, them too, connections at the Court... 
-The very worried Varus soon realizes that as far as supplies from the area are concerned, he may just as well forget it, judging by what happened to the cohorts. The fact that the column was attacked as soon as the first day proves that point. They suddenly found themselves in the middle of a hostile country. 
-We do not know where exactly that rebellion started. All we have is what the ancient sources say Arminius said to Varus. The man who saw the man who saw the bear.. Not very trustworthy, IMHO... As I said above, I seriously doubt Arminius fed Varus with the right info.. 
-And that means for Varus the prospect of about 20.000 people at least, sitting in a camp in the middle of the german winter without anything to eat. 
-And a lot of other people understood it likewise and Varus, logically, decided to retreat towards the Rhine as fast as he could, trying to beat not only the Germans but the equinox rains. 
-At that point, pandemonium may have begun. Panic, confusion, absence of clear orders. The famous siege of Sabinus and Cotta by the Eburones under Ambiorix during the War of the Gauls is a perfect illustration of the atmosphere in such occurrences, and of the kind of stunts the "barbarians" could pull regarding misleading informations. 
-Obviously, command started falling apart quite early. If it hadn't, the three legions would not have left with civilian and soldier intermingled as described by the sources. Discipline was probably slack from the beginning anyways. 
-And yes, Dan, they would have sent recons ahead instead, and the baggage would have been neatly put in the center and so on. Like Flavius Josephus' description. Sabinus and Cotta didn't send any recon either and the trap was even more obvious. 
-There was no pitched battle. The "battlefield" is strewn from the Weser to Kalkriese. about halfway the Romans reached a relatively cleared up area but they didn't give battle, they regrouped what was left of the column, repelled the german assaults, destroyed the heavy baggage and spend a night under the rain behind the relative protection of a wall and rampart. 
-Besides, Arminius probably had his warriors back off at that point and contented himself with harassment tactics. He was not stupid, remember? 
-Ancient sources tell us that all along the ordeal the weather was atrocious and that caused numerous trees to fall across the path. Mmm.. Mmm.. That looks like an excuse from the losing team at the end of a soccer game. "We had the wind against us.." 
-The path the Romans took leaving the Weser area towards the Rhine had been trodden ever since the neolithic age at least and for twenty years by the Romans. The Germans had no metalled roads but since they went places like everybody else they had pathways and tracks big and small. And this one track was a main thoroughfare. 
-Trees falling there have two explanations: a freak equinox storm like the one that ravaged a good part of the french forests in 2000. That could have been the case. 
-Or it could have been the work of the german axes rather than Jupiter's bolts. In 216 BC in the Litana forest, 25.000 romans were annihilated by the Boii who felled trees on the column. Of course they didn't kill them all with trees. They cut the column into more manageable sections by felling trees across the path. 
-That makes me suspect that the Germans not only built that wall at Kalkriese but several others, along with abattis and probably flooding certain areas as well, in order to split the column, bog it down and channel the different parts towards their respective fates. And at all costs channel them away from the straight route to Aliso going across a range of hills called the Osning range, through the Doren pass. Away from that pass through which the Romans could escape and through which they could receive reinforcements. 
-In this case, numbers would dwindle very quickly and my guess is that no more than five thousand made it to Kalkriese: Varus and his HQ and the most disciplined of his soldiers, who had managed to stay together, as well as some civilians. The rest is evenly split along the road. 
-The Kalkriese site is small, so was Varus' "army" at that point. And the ancient sources speak also of a last battle in a place too small for the legionaries to deploy. 
-The sources also say that many survivors were taken prisoner. Maybe they didn't slaughter them all but put the many who surrendered into slavery. Ancient sources talk about that too. Would-be senators ending up sheepherders. 
-Also, many survivors managed to flee to --probably-- Aliso where they sustained a prolonged siege before eventually succeeding in escaping towards Vetera. 
-The fact that Aliso was well provisioned may prove that wintering around the Westphalian Gates was planned and that these supplies were piled up there to be later transported to Varus' people on the Weser. 
-At least those survivors --numbers unknown-- were not at Kalkriese. 
-There are still a lot of serious scientific examinations to be made on the Kalkriese site. 
-As for the wall, I have a hard time picturing myself roman soldiers taking the trouble of quarrying chalk --where did these stones came from, BTW?-- to build a wall several kilometers long, specially if they were in some kind of a real hurry.. 
-Varus going to "quell a rebellion"? Yep, right, like Napoleon left Moscow to quell a rebellion of the cossaks in the Berezina area.. 
This is extremely long already, so I thank those who have been kind and persistent enough to suffer this from beginning to end for their considerable attention.. 
Signed: Antoninus Lucretius, E.S.A.G.S (European School of Armchair Generalship Studies) Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showLocalUserPublicProfile?login=antoninuslucretius>Antoninus Lucretius</A> at: 3/24/02 4:08:22 pm