RomanArmyTalk
Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Printable Version

+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact (/showthread.php?tid=31026)



Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Sean Manning - 02-18-2019

Hi guys,

  two years ago, I put together a call for suggestions of finds of scale and lamellar armour with their soft parts intact.  Anywhere west of India and up to late antiquity is of interest, I define my terms in the announcement.

https://bookandsword.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/manning_arma_organic_components_scale_armour_1_1.pdf

Please share this to your communities!  I am not smart about FB groups, subreddits, twitter hashtags, and what not ... no time!  Unfortunately, the newsletter of the Association for Roman Military Equipment Studies has dried up, and I don't know where classical archaeologists hang out online.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2019

You need to talk to Nadeem Ahmad.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Arahne - 03-02-2019

Contact our colleague from Čačak Museum about Jelica find (VI century). It is on conservation now as far as I know.
vujadinovicvujadinatgmaildotcom
Mentioned remains of hide in Jelica catalogue on page 200, cat. nr. 403.
https://www.academia.edu/attachments/53502104/download_file?st=MTU1MTU0NDU1OCw4OS4xMTAuMjMxLjIwOSwxMTIwOTc0&s=profile


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Sean Manning - 03-04-2019

(03-02-2019, 04:36 PM)Arahne Wrote: Contact our colleague from Čačak Museum about Jelica find (VI century). It is on conservation now as far as I know.
vujadinovicvujadinatgmaildotcom
Mentioned remains of hide in Jelica catalogue on page 200, cat. nr. 403.
https://www.academia.edu/attachments/53502104/download_file?st=MTU1MTU0NDU1OCw4OS4xMTAuMjMxLjIwOSwxMTIwOTc0&s=profile

Thanks Stefan, I have sent emails to the museum and to Nadeem Ahmad.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Caradepato - 04-30-2019

What about the golyamata mogila cuirass?

https://www.academia.edu/12392747/The_Tumulus_of_Golyamata_Mogila_near_the_villages_of_Malomirovo_and_Zlatinitsa_-_Chapter_I


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Sean Manning - 05-21-2019

Its on the list between Gordion, Turkey and Vize/Bizye, Turkey.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Crispianus - 05-22-2019

(05-21-2019, 10:47 PM)Sean Manning Wrote: Its on the list between Gordion, Turkey and Vize/Bizye, Turkey.

Just an observation on the Dura finds, there is a fairly large corpus of leather items from the site though it hasn't been published as such to my knowledge other then items on the yale site:

71 items in this search but there are I believe more in other museum collections...
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search/dura%20europos%20leather

449 items...
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search/scale%20dura%20bronze

23 items...
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search/scale%20dura%20iron

No actual leather scales...
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search/scale%20dura%20leather

2 items of leather armour...
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search/Leather%20lamellar%20dura

Given that none of these appear to be leather scale armour other then the leg defences? (which could be Sassanian given the location) is it at least possible that the Romans (or any others at Dura) were not using purely leather scale armour since there are apparantly no other finds at Dura, where given the reasonably good survival rate for leather and the large amounts of scale armour found you may expect to find some....

The site in recent years has been robbed out by the way so it seems unlikely anything new will surface....

Not Written in Stone Wink


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Sean Manning - 05-22-2019

Different kinds of hide product have very different survival rates, and hide scales are often rawhide whose survival rate is pretty near zero. So we have heavy, tanned leather calligae but not the ?tawed? leather straps which articulated iron manicae and lorica segmentata. Therefore I would not read the absence of evidence as evidence of absence, especially because Roman Army Studies scholars and reenactors often do the reverse and assume that all ancient armour looked like the iron, bronze, and brass kinds which they see in reports (my favourite example: the big brass needles in pewter or brass cases which medieval reenactors love, but also survive in the ground better than other solutions and are easy to spot in digs ... brass cases are the vast majority of the finds, but I doubt that they were in the vast majority of sewing baskets).

Since I wrote the call for sources in 2017, I have gained access to James' Dura book, and the published version will talk about it in more detail. I don't remember whether the rawhide-and-stick shields were from the collapsed tower like the horse trappers and the cuisses.

Also, the scales and lamellar from Dura are a lot of catalogue entries, but I seem to recall that James thought most of them came from a very small number of armours which were in a fragile condition when found and were not well conserved (they are still decaying, I would like to see them as soon as possible but that costs money and CO2). So the long list of catalogue entries might just tell us about 2 or 3 armours.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Crispianus - 08-15-2019

(05-22-2019, 04:57 PM)Sean Manning Wrote: So the long list of catalogue entries might just tell us about 2 or 3 armours.

I would agree probably not very many actual pieces.

On another note found my images of the Ashmolean Scythian armour this came from a book that was online on the AM site, but since the site has been updated its gone, as far as I remember the book title was something like "Scythian Treasures in Oxford Ashmolean Museum" added link, I believe this is the one:

[attachment=15015]

Included text, dimensions and original reference:

[attachment=15016]

Also a neck protector from Dervini (Macedonian) this came from a greek book which included an extensive english summary called unsurprisingly "The Dervini Tombs" original title "ΟΙ ΤΑΦΟΙ ΤΟΥ ΔΕΡΒΕΝΙΟΥ" :

Gilded bronze on leather no dimensions that I can see:
[attachment=15017]

Also another image here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dandiffendale/8155690087/in/photolist-G2Wzt9-dqG3wk-GiTDQ7-RVssiB-Z9gQjS-YssuLA-PZJJwb


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Crispianus - 08-15-2019

A few links here to the Leather Armour tentatively dated to the 3-4th century AD found at Karanis:

Conservation of the Karanis Leather Armour

Overview of the excavations

Publication: "Karanis Revealed" free pdf download includes the Armour in detail, dating etc.


RE: Call for Sources: Extant Scale and Lamellar with Fabric/Hide Intact - Sean Manning - 08-17-2019

Thanks Crispianus. I am fully booked right now, but roughly, I think I already have the fragments of scale armour in Oxford or Cambridge, I don't have the gorget from Dervini or the lamellar from Karanis.

What name or handle should I use when I acknowledge you in the footnotes? Feel free to PM me or write to the email address on the "about" page of my blog.

I was not able to contact the Jellica museum or Nadeem Ahmad of Eran ud Turan.

Here is Petros Themelis' catalogue entry for the gorget, with a mix of Google translate and my own translation. Could anyone who speaks Modern Greek help?

Β46. Μηνοειδές περιτραχήλιον (Πίν. 19, 95)
=========================================
Ελλιπές κατά τον πυρήνα και την κατακόρυφη ταινία προστασίας του λαιμού (κολλάρου). Αποκατάθηκε και συμπληρώηκε με δέρμα. Λιακοσμημένο μεχάλκινεσ πεταλόσχημες φολίδες, σιην ευθύγραμμη χορδή των οποίων από τρεισ οπές πρόσδεσής. Μέγ. άνοιγμα 0,225 μ.

Β. 46 Crescent-shaped gorget (pictures 19, 95)

Incomplete in the core and the upright standing band around the throat (collar). Restored and supplemented with leather. Decorated with πεταλόοχημες bronze scales in a straight line, with three anchor holes. Max. opening 0.225 m.