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+--- Thread: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread (/showthread.php?tid=3400)
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The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - richsc - 05-23-2005
I just got the new version of Corelli's "Pompeii", newly translated from Italian. Superb book and illustrations in a coffee table format, with impressive detail. Great price from David Brown too.
But, question: in an image of carbonized bread, there is a baker's mark. My daughter and I, who both bake bread, can't figure out how and when that was impressed into the loaf. The lettering is quite sharp and distinct, which would not be the case if it were impressed even before the loaf went into the oven, we feel. Does anyone know if have been any tools found that impress into the loaves?
Secondly, the angle does not allow you to read the inscription. Does anyone know what it is?>
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 05-23-2005
Salve
In many european museums you can see some of that stamps. Usually they are circular, mada of copper alloy, and with the letters inverted.
It's usual to identify that pieces generically as "stamps", probably they have a multi-purpose funcion: mark the bread, brick-stamp, horses(?), leather, tabula ceratae...
VALE
possible? - GaiusAquiliusBritannicus - 06-01-2005
Ave!
Is it possible that the bread was baked on a sheet that had the stamp embossed on it, and then when the bread was done, it was simply flipped over and sold with the makers mark facing up?
I do not have the book or access to the pictures, so I cannot tell if the side with the mark looks 'flat' or 'shaped' in some way, which could tell you if the bread was baked in a form of some sort.
I can't see how a stamp would work, either unless you timed it just right near the end of the baking...
Britannicus
that bread stamp - richsc - 06-01-2005
We have been puzzling this out too. A Pompeiian loaf is typically round with eight sections cut into it. It seems that the bakers used round pans a lot and occasionally just on the floor of the oven. These shapes you can easily see and reproduce. You can find baking pans in Pompeii but not what you describe that would flip them, though that would probably work.
But how to get a sharp lettered imprint in? If before it rises, then it will soften out. If at the end of the rising, you'd just punch it down. And if you let it sit in while it's rising, it would push it down, maybe not rise as much as needed.
Probably thing to do is experiment.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - Carlton Bach - 06-02-2005
Maybe iof you plasced a terracotta stamp with the baker's mark on the bottom of the metal pan? It'd be cheaper to produce than raised metal (carve a wooden mold, slap clay on it), make pans exchangeable, and would produce the desired effect (sharp leettering).
I found a brass pan at the flea market last WE that lookes like a Pompeii find, so I'll give it a try one of these days.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - hoplite14gr - 06-02-2005
In Greece the people have a round bread offering for the church and there is a wooden stamp that they use. The sign is the cross and the name of Jesus in Greek. They usualy do it before backing. But there is a variation of an extremely soft-crusted bread they make in monasteries were the stamping is made after the baking. Hope I helped
Kind regards
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - marsvigilia - 06-05-2005
I know very little about baking bread.
But how about a weighted stamp that you would place on top of the bread during the baking and remove after the bread was fully baked.
Weighting would be the key. Too much and it will squish the bread. To little and you don't get a good mark.
Just a thought.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - Dan Diffendale - 06-06-2005
I'm at a loss for anything further, but maybe this will help you:
An actual bronze stamp was found at Pompeii that says
"L. Auruncule(i) Secundioni(s)",
while some carbonized loaves found read
[C]eleris Q. Grani | Veri Ser(v)
"(work of) Celer, slave of Quintus Granius Verus."
Here's a much later stamp:
[url:l0h75v3r]http://www.vcoins.com/ancientcoinart/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=261&large=0[/url]
Ok, here's "Bread Stamp Physics"
http://www.prosphora.org/page37.html
http://www.ancient-art.com/images/a511.jpg
Hey, here's a legionary bread stamp!
http://www.gtj.org.uk/blowup.php?lang=en&id=25420&t=1
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 06-06-2005
That are some of the stamps i have mentioned. Thanks.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - hoplite14gr - 06-09-2005
My local baker told me that it is good to make a very thin coating with sesami or ideally olive oil on the stamp so that it will not stuck.
Hope I helped
Kind regards
Stefanos
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - Arahne - 01-01-2006
I have few ideas. I think that most important thing is not to use a lot of germ in such bread. Maybe something like soda bikarbona was used. Second is my mothers and my experience for creating bread for slava (orthodox serbs differ from other orhtodox nations for feast called slava-every familly has its own slava i.e. they celebrate their saint, mine is st. Nicholas). So, my mother creates small grapes, books, birds, and proskurice (this is how we call those small stamps with Christ's name that Stefanos spoke about). She makes them with mixture of flour, water and salt (like when you create noudles without egg). And they always look like they looked before baking.
And you always have these crustuli that are much more complicated.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - andym - 01-01-2006
I would subscribe to the idea of the loaf being sat on the Stamp as its being baked.Otherwise the dough would just fill itself back up as it rises.Also if the stamp was on top not underneath,it would cause it not to rise if too heavy or if too light no impression.If you look carefully at the pic of the Legionary Stamp from Caerleon you can see that is has a slight indentation from the stamp being underneath.(Mind you, looking at the loaf of bread, i might need a new set of teeth afterwards! :lol: )
I have just had a thought.if the "Bread" was not of the Leavened type but more akin to the Royal Navy "Hard Tack" style of breads then a stamp prior to cooking would work.Also this type of bread would last a lot longer in a Military setting.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - hoplite14gr - 01-05-2006
For what is worth:
I had a talk with our local baker a little ago.
He told me that until 1950 there were wodden surfaces were the stamp od the shop was either like an anagluph or harved.
They put the fresh dough there to "raise". They turned the wooden "planks" an the the bread was baked with the stamp ready.
Another variation was a clay bowl-like construction that they made the round loaves or "karveli" as we call them here. The stamp was "curved" at the botom. Again they put the fresh dough there to "raise" and they upturned the pots in the oven.
Hope I helped, kind regards.
a bread baking bowl - richsc - 01-06-2006
It seems to be the next thing then, to commission a round pottery baking bowl with the name set in the bottom, or perhaps the a round baking stone sort of thing with the name in it. I suspect Julia could make one of those.
Re: The logo on the carbonized Pompeiian bread - venicone - 04-29-2006
these are bread stamps in the museum at Caerleon, South Wales
http://ourpasthistory.com/Gallery/bread