+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Sword Points (/showthread.php?tid=4036)
Sword Points - Gaius Octavius Drusus - 10-31-2005
Ave et salutatio fraterii:
In perusing the 'Real Gear' gallery of Legio VI Victrix, I saw a picture of a Pompeii gladius from the Axel Guttman collection with a rather unusual point. Instead of the conventional flat-sided point, the point of this blade had a very short, raised rib (like the one on a pugio) only about 1.25" long.
I am curious if there are other known examples/types of gladii with this kind of point.
Vale:
Gaius Octavius Drusus
Re: Sword Points - john m roberts - 10-31-2005
A couple of years ago on Sword Forum International, Peter Johnsson (Albion's high-art swordsmith) told of examining some swords in a European museum. One he described as a Mainz gladius with a very thin blade with an extremely thick, full-length midrib. Since he had only a limited time and was there to copy another sword, he didn't get to make a drawing. Like so many, this was an undisplayed piece, so who knows exactly how many such molder away unseen in museum collections. Even so, it confirms that the midrib was sometimes used on gladii.
The so called "phillips " gladius - Conal - 10-31-2005
I am sure that in teh Leeds Armoury ( UK) there is a rconstruction with such a tip.
Re: Sword Points - caiusbeerquitius - 10-31-2005
The gladi in the Roemisches Museum Augsburg also show this feature. By this measure the tip of the weapon becomes similar to a four-sided spearhead like e.g. the pilum-tip. It makes it easier to penetrate chainmail with such a sword.
Re: Sword Points - john m roberts - 11-01-2005
Was it really for armor piercing, or just to reinforce what was the weakest part of the blade as well as the part that took the worst beating. Earlier gladii had long, slender points and I can picture a legionary armorer who's just been handed a barrel full of gladii after a battle, all with the first inch of the points doubled back and thinking, "Hmm, we gotta do something about this." Many of the legion's enemies in the early days wore no armor, but almost all had shields and in a typical fight that point would hit a shield dozens of times. The shorter, wider tip section of the Pompeii pattern may have been another way to reduce damage, and the Pompeii tip with a short midrib would reduce point damage even further. Of course, superior mail-piercing would be an added bonus.
Re: Sword Points - Matt Lukes - 11-02-2005
No pun intended, but that's a really good point John- I was thinking the same thing. It seems a bit of a leap to assume the tip rib is specifically for 'piercing' mail- it's an interesting possibility, but simple reinforcement seems rather more likely. That's what the rib and even the diamond cross-section of a blade, arrowhead or whatever are usually for afterall. I've read that there is a fair amount of variation in the quality of Roman steel, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the tip of a stabbing weapon like the gladius had a fair breakage rate in battle.
I'd actually be curious to know if this rib actually did make penetrating mail any easier than a blade without it- I'd bet it wouldn't make much difference.
Matt
Re: Sword Points - caiusbeerquitius - 11-02-2005
That's a very good idea. That's where experimental archaeology might help to find an answer.
I have a knife made from roman iron, it is very stable. Also, the gladi here in the museum are pattern-welded, which would add much to their stability, I suppose.
Either way, this tip makes it much easier to penetrate chainmail, simple physical laws.
Re: Sword Points - Conal - 11-02-2005
I have a picture which I can e-mail to someone who can post it as I cant seem to do so ?
[email protected]
Re: Sword Points - Praefectusclassis - 11-02-2005
Hi Conal.
Go ahead and send it to me (admin*AT*romanarmy.com). I'll host it here.
To add a couple of points - Crispvs - 11-02-2005
Just to add to the mix:
- Type A pugio blades feature upstanding midribs.
![[Image: IMGP3532.jpg]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Crispvs/IMGP3532.jpg)
Thanks are due to Carlton Bach for sending me this image of the Copenhagen dagger.
- The sword held by one of the soldiers with the 'dolphin' helmets on one of the Mainz column bases features a full length midrib.
![[Image: mainz002_w.jpg]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Crispvs/mainz002_w.jpg)
Crispvs
Re: Sword Points - Dan Howard - 11-02-2005
Quote:Either way, this tip makes it much easier to penetrate chainmail, simple physical laws.
Simple physical laws? Suppose it is impossible to generate enough force with one hand to penetrate mail? It doesn't matter what your blade looked like you still would not compromise the armour. Mail provided a much better defense than many assume. Suppose that the blade was reinforced to reduce the likelihood of it breaking when it encountered bone?
Edit: some supporting evidence.
According to Horsfall (1999) the maximum force that can be generated with a single handed thrust is 63 J underarm and 115 J overarm.
According to Williams (2003) the amount of force required for a blade tip to penetrate his mail test pieces is 140J for the 15th C example and over 200 J for a modern mail replica. Even a bodkin head requires 120J to compromise his samples which is still greater than can be generated by one hand.
Your "simple physical laws" seem to suggest that you can't penetrate decent quality mail with a one-handed thrust. It doesn't matter what sort of blade you use.
Re: Sword Points - caiusbeerquitius - 11-03-2005
If you are able to get the tip of the sword int one ring, then it makes of course a difference, into which directions the energy is dircted. In the case of a four-sided weapon the ring is much easier opened, than in the case of a two-sided. The energy of the thrust is not, what it is about first of all in this case.
[quote]It doesn't matter what sort of blade you use.[quote]
The energy at the tip of a weapon is not identical to the energy generated by the hand thrusting it. Think of a woman in high heels.
Re: Sword Points - Primvs Pavlvs - 11-03-2005
Thinking of a woman in high heels changes everything! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Re: Sword Points - Felix - 11-03-2005
Quote:If you are able to get the tip of the sword int one ring, then it makes of course a difference, into which directions the energy is dircted. In the case of a four-sided weapon the ring is much easier opened, than in the case of a two-sided. The energy of the thrust is not, what it is about first of all in this case.
Quote:It doesn't matter what sort of blade you use.Quote:The energy at the tip of a weapon is not identical to the energy generated by the hand thrusting it. Think of a woman in high heels.
The tests done by Alan Williams (how Dan referred to) were done with a variety of points - including a bodkin point, which is very much the same shape as you are proposing. The energy generated by the single arm is still less than the energy shown to breach the mail he tested.
Re: Sword Points - caiusbeerquitius - 11-03-2005
Quote:The tests done by Alan Williams (how Dan referred to) were done with a variety of points - including a bodkin point, which is very much the same shape as you are proposing. The energy generated by the single arm is still less than the energy shown to breach the mail he tested.
Well, I said that that this form makes it easier to penetrate the armour, according to simple physical laws. I did not write about the possibility of breaking mail with a thrusted sword. In this context the question might arise, why the blades in the first half of the 1st centuryAD developed these long tips? Anyone an idea?