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+--- Thread: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age (/showthread.php?tid=4489)
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Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Kampfduck - 01-12-2006
Hoi,
im new on this forum, and this is my first post
Im not a reenactor within the roman/greek period, but
busy with reenacting within the napoleonic age as a french
linesoldier 1812 and a french douanier also under napoleon.
But also im heavily interested in the greek hellenic army.
My second hobby are strategic games on the computer, my
favorite game is rome total war, wich is i think is a brilliant game,
alltough not very accurete in terms of history.
Thats why some fans of the game started to make a modification
for the game, thats puts in more realism, and tries to be as
realistic as possible, to show the nations and there armys in a
historicall correct way, the timeperiod is the hellenistic era
(from 330 - 30bc) and at the moment they are working on the
greek factions.
But for some units it is very difficult to find information on the internet.
There is a lot of talking about sparta and how there hoplites would look
in this timeframe, we know that most of the greek states would have
addopted iphikrates hoplite, and that the heavy armed hoplites more
and more dissepeared from the battlefield.
but what about the spartan army at this period?
I found this forum while surfing on the internet looking for information.
i think this is a great source of information, and i was hoping some of
you would have some information about the spartan army in the hellenistic
period?
europa barbarorum mod, rome total war:
europa barbarorum forum
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2006
As Sparta is concerned Leuktra was bat but Mantinea was catastrofic.
The decimation of the citizen body and the eroding of the social fabric messed things baddly.
Debt, poverty and indiference abolished Lycourgos laws.
Until the attempt of Agis and Cleomenes Sparta had virtualy sank in misery and oblivion.
These guys increased the citizen body restablished Lycurgus laws and reformed the Army as pike armed infantry with peltast support.
Mercenary Cretan archers and cavalry were added.
It ended tragicaly because Agis was too trusting and Cleomenies too much of a demagogue and soundrel.
Navis who tried as alast chance reduced the pikemen brought more horsemen and upgraded the peltast with armor THORAKITAE.
He was a good leader but he was murdered by treason and that was the end.
Possibly spartan Thorakitae fought at LEFKOPETRA at 146 B.C and were given by the Roamns to the Aetolians who promptly murdered them.
Kind regards
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Duncan Head - 01-12-2006
Quote:There is a lot of talking about sparta and how there hoplites would look in this timeframe, we know that most of the greek states would have addopted iphikrates hoplite, and that the heavy armed hoplites more and more dissepeared from the battlefield.Actually, we don't know that. A couple of late sources (Diodoros and Nepos) mention Iphikrates' reform and imply that such re-armed troops became popular, but there is remarkably little evidence that the Iphikratean equipment was ever widely adopted, and plenty of depictions and descriptions of the "traditional" hoplite gear with the big Argive shield well after Iphikrates' day.
For one take on the significance of Iphikrates' "reform", have a look at http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/MilHist.html - thought-provoking at the very least.
Quote:but what about the spartan army at this period?The Spartan kings Agis IV and Kleomenes III changed the equipment of at least part of the Spartan army from the old hoplite gear to the Macedonian-style pike-phalanx in the late 3rd century. The main sources for this are Plutarch's Lives of Agis and Kleomenes - translations online at http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/index.html - and Book II of Polybios' Histories, which describes the defeat of Kleomenes' "reformed" Spartan army by the Macedonians at Sellasia in 222 BC - see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... /home.html
Under Roman rule, Spartan troops fought for Pompey at Pharsalus and for Octavian at Philippi, but I don't think there's any evidence on how they were equipped.
As for appearance, Plutarch writes that Agis insisted on wearing the traditional Spartan cloak, though implying that not many Spartans still did. Pausanias says that the traditional Spartan clothing and hairstyle were still worn in the Roman period, but it is possible that this was a revival of "tradition", rather than that the Spartan soldiers had worn the same style of clothing throughout the Hellenistic period.
A good modern introduction is Paul Cartledge and Antony Spawforth, Hellenistic and Roman Sparta (Routledge, 2nd edition 2002).
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2006
Spartans in Pharsalus could either be thorakitae peltast or even Legionaries.
Given the situation of most Greek cities at the time I wouldn´t be surprized if they were psiloi.
Kind regards
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Kampfduck - 01-12-2006
this is very good information, many thanks!
maybe i will have some other questions in the nearby future concerning unit types, i hope this isnt a problem?
many greetz
Duck
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2006
I learned a lot in this forum.
If I can help other I am glad.
Kind regards
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - floofthegoof - 01-12-2006
Does the archeology say anything about this? Is there any surviving Greek gear from this period?
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Kampfduck - 01-12-2006
its very difficult, a few on the be forum were asking for this, but untill now i couldnt find any information, also the given sources are not very detailed.
we all know how a hoplite would look in 4-500 bc, but for this timeperiod its extreem difficult to find proper information.
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Magnus - 01-12-2006
In the end, what happened to Sparta? Is there a lot of archaeological evidence today of the city and it's culture?
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - hoplite14gr - 01-12-2006
Some hellenistic grave pillars and some frecoes in Alexandria are the only depictions of Hellenistic troops. The reconstructions on the illustrated books of Osprey are based on them.
Sparta is less excavated compaired to other sites in Greece.
The latest headlines were made last year when a Bronze age palace, termed "the palace of Helen and Menelaos" was found.
Today Sparta is capital of the Laconia prefecture in Peloponissos.
Most of the modern city is directly over the ancient and excavations are difficult.
Athens with its invention of modern democracy is widly known.
As far as Sparta is concerned most focus is on its hoplites rather than the rest. Even its peculiar organisation is poorly understood even today.
Kind regards
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Arthes - 01-12-2006
Take a look on here too.....for what archaeological remains can be seen at Sparta...
http://www.stoa.org/metis/cgi-bin/cat - you will need Quick Time loaded...
The mountains in the distance are still the same......
regards
Arthes
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Anonymous - 01-13-2006
Kampfduck is a name to conjure with! Why not Kampf-Ente?
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Ghostmojo - 07-17-2007
The one thing that the Spartans could be relied upon to do - was make a comeback.
Think - Agis III / Agis IV / Kleomenes III / Machanidas / Nabis ...
It is interesting to conjecture their later appearance and organisation at say Pharsallos or Phillippi. :? 8)
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - hoplite14gr - 07-17-2007
Sadly Agis and Cleomenes were out of touch with their time thats why they wasted valuable resources that Machanidas and Nabis could not have access too.
There is a tompstone of a Laconian Imperial bodyguard and somewhere
I read that 16th century Holy Roman Emprors bodyguards listed "Menoti" or "Manoti" Maniates from Laconia in their ranks.
You can call this a comeback!
Kind regards
Re: Spartan soldiers in the Hellenistic age - Ghostmojo - 07-18-2007
Quote:... Under Roman rule, Spartan troops fought for Pompey at Pharsalus and for Octavian at Philippi, but I don't think there's any evidence on how they were equipped ...
It's good to see Duncan Head on this site. I don't know if you remember an email discussion we had a few years back Duncan, about Brasidas, Spartans etc. (via the SOA)? Regards - Howard Johnston
Also
Quote:Sadly Agis and Cleomenes were out of touch with their time thats why they wasted valuable resources that Machanidas and Nabis could not have access too.
There is a tompstone of a Laconian Imperial bodyguard and somewhere
I read that 16th century Holy Roman Emprors bodyguards listed "Menoti" or "Manoti" Maniates from Laconia in their ranks.
You can call this a comeback! Kind regards
Cheers for that Stefanos. I've been reading your posts with keen interest. 8)
Kleomenes III is very interesting character. He was perhaps the last great Spartan. History has been less kind to Nabis (and Machanidas) who seems to have reduced Lakedaimon to a refuge for mercenaries and pirates! Including Agis IV - they all suffered from bad luck and being out of place in time. What they attempted in that twilight period was doomed from the start. Sparta had become a small (if somewhat uppity) fish swimming in a sea of far larger predators.
Still, Sellasia could very easily have gone the other way - and had he waited a day or two longer Antigonos would have had to return up north. However, I daresay the final showdown would have come sooner or later.