+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Allies & Enemies of Rome (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc) (/showthread.php?tid=6780)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 10-03-2009
Hailog, Benjamin and Ron
Both of you have brought up good points. It does appear that the Britons were "healthy" enough to colonize the major chunk of Armorica, plus parts of the Loire Valley. Interestingly, these colonies were directly adjacent to the Alans (who settled along their Eastern border) and the Taifali (who settled in the Loire Valley). Gregory of Tours mentions that the revered holy-man Senoch was a Taifal. Within such "neighbors," we also find a longstanding cavalry tradition, principally from the steppes.
Quote:Despite the lack of definitive supporting evidence, it's not far-fetched to posit a continuity of mounted warrior tradition in both Britannia and Brittany (formerly Armorica)... Paradoxically, the mounted warrior tradition was re-introduced to Britain in 1066. Among William of Normandy's forces were those of Alan of Brittany (a suggestive name given the role of the Alans in that same area as the Western Empire folded).
I recall Benjamin mentioning that the given name "Alan" also meant "deer" (roebuck?). Just as well, the name shows up in the fourth generation of the Salomon gens. David Nash Ford has described Salomon as "very obscure;" odd that we know nothing about the father of the famed Aldrien of Arthurian tradition, who also appears as the father of John Budic, aka Emyr Llydaw and John Rieth, the principal contender for "Riothamus" (at least Geoffrey Ashe thought so).
This is theory, not history, but Salomon may have arrived through the Roman cavalry in the same fashion that the original Theithfallt did. Salomon may have been in the large Alan recruitment conducted by Gratian in the early 380s. The name is not Celtic. Interestingly, if we are to believe medieval pedigrees :roll: , his son Aldrien married the sister of Bishop Germanus, a lady named Rhineguilda. Here again we see "outside" influence. Within this family of Salomon, we find the name "Alan" introduced in the fourth generation and in evey other generation thereafter.
As Ron pointed out (above), the name continued and perhaps the "Alan of Brittany" of William the Bastard's time may have extended from this Salomon family, which also had an earlier Alan I of Brittany. If so, the Breton/Alanic/Taifal cavalry tradition never died out. And odd as it seems, Bretons were probably involved in "recolonizing" an island they originally came from :wink: , plus the hints of "Alanisms" as in the newer name of Fitz-Alan.
When you take all the "smoking gun evidence," yet including newer stuff introduced though recent genetic studies, we find a longstanding cavalry tradition incorporated into early British society. On the isle, we now have more than hints of Thracian blood, then Iazyge, then Taifali and Gothic, all of it revolving around military horsemanship. In the end, it might appear that the Britons were a little less "insular"-- a little less "Celtic"-- than we once thought they were.
hock:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Agraes - 10-03-2009
Quote:I recall Benjamin mentioning that the given name "Alan" also meant "deer" (roebuck?). Just as well, the name shows up in the fourth generation of the Salomon gens. David Nash Ford has described Salomon as "very obscure;" odd that we know nothing about the father of the famed Aldrien of Arthurian tradition, who also appears as the father of John Budic, aka Emyr Llydaw and John Rieth, the principal contender for "Riothamus" (at least Geoffrey Ashe thought so).
Yes, Léon Fleuriot linked the popular breton name Alan with fox, deer or other animals with red fur. Not with the Alans at all.
Breton genealogies were mostly made up for political reasons, and lot of them are post-12th century.
Salomon for exemple, is the name of a famous IXth century breton king. Names like Riwallon or Hoel belongs to various noble breton houses of the IXth to XIIth centuries. It's easy to see someone picking up those names and making up a Salomon I and II to have a good king list. It's even more true for some of those list that dates back only to the XVth century... Even if they look archaic, they were made up or recompiled in a period when Breton dukes were competiting with french kings. Sort of "my lineage is older than yours" stuff...
So those genealogies are really not reliable at all for studying early Brittany.
Bretons in the IXth century used hit-and-run tactics. That's not the heavy cavalry of lancers used by the Sarmatians or Alans. It is more common with the tactics of the Maures, also famous for their cavalry in late roman times. Magnus Maximus rallied a unit of such cavalry, and Mauri limitanei garrisonned western Armorica in the 4th century.
Even this is not obvious link for me.
Hit-and-run tactics were used by both celtic, germanic and roman cavalry for hundred of years before the stirrup came west. A 2nd (?) century roman account from Vindolanda complains about those brittunculi, fighting on horseback with javelins and never getting caught...
The Britons are unprotected by armour. There are very many cavalry. The cavalry do not use swords, nor do the wretched Britons [Brittunculi] mount in order to throw javelins.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 10-04-2009
Quote:Yes, Léon Fleuriot linked the popular breton name Alan with fox, deer or other animals with red fur. Not with the Alans at all.
Breton genealogies were mostly made up for political reasons, and lot of them are post-12th century.
Salomon for exemple, is the name of a famous IXth century breton king. Names like Riwallon or Hoel belongs to various noble breton houses of the IXth to XIIth centuries. It's easy to see someone picking up those names and making up a Salomon I and II to have a good king list. It's even more true for some of those list that dates back only to the XVth century... Even if they look archaic, they were made up or recompiled in a period when Breton dukes were competiting with french kings. Sort of "my lineage is older than yours" stuff...
So those genealogies are really not reliable at all for studying early Brittany.
Yoh, Benjamin
Leon Fleuriot interpreted "Alan" in an animalistic context. He ignored or dismissed other probabilities. Early copies of the original Brut list "Alanus" as "the first man in Europe." I might point out that Geoffrey of Monmouth also used a Brut, which he described as his "ancient book in the British tongue." Nennius mentions Alanus in the progenitor context twice, obviously working from Bruts written before 825. As such, it would have been a very old name, perhaps equated with the deer. But the tribal Alans also linked themeselves with the deer and a progenitor named Alanus. As such, the nomen Alan may be extremely ancient and obviously used by parallel cultures. Perhaps it means the "venerated one," and therefore pertains both to man and deer. In family pedigrees the name is conspicuous in the Saloman gens but nowhere else.
Quote:Bretons in the IXth century used hit-and-run tactics. That's not the heavy cavalry of lancers used by the Sarmatians or Alans. It is more common with the tactics of the Maures, also famous for their cavalry in late roman times. Magnus Maximus rallied a unit of such cavalry, and Mauri limitanei garrisonned western Armorica in the 4th century.
Even this is not obvious link for me.
Very good point. If a traditional core of the sub-Roman cavalry arrived from the two units of Equites Taifali plus a "homegrown" influence, we wouldn't see cataphract formations. Even in Alanic tradition we view hit and run tactics. Julius Frontinus' description of Queen Tomyris' battle against Cyrus doesn't sound cataphractish. At the battle of Chalons, the Alanic king Sangiban used a subtle combination of both styles. Actually, when we think about it, the units in Britain were called the Equites Taifali but they were comprised of Goths, Alans, perhaps Spaniards and a Hun or two. :roll:
Quote:Hit-and-run tactics were used by both celtic, germanic and roman cavalry for hundred of years before the stirrup came west. A 2nd (?) century roman account from Vindolanda complains about those brittunculi, fighting on horseback with javelins and never getting caught...
The Britons are unprotected by armour. There are very many cavalry. The cavalry do not use swords, nor do the wretched Britons [Brittunculi] mount in order to throw javelins.
Interesting quote, but it's from the 2nd century, perhaps before the Iazyge cavalry was sent into Britain by Marcus Aureliaus. I don't even believe that the Iazyge steppe "tradition" could have survived, untainted, into a much later post-Roman Britain. What are your thoughts on that? :wink:
I agree with you. The idea of a solid cataphract line as used by the Sassanian royal Savaran doesn't seem applicable for fighting Picts or Angles. But what I was getting at in my last post was this: the name of "Salomon" ("salt-user" or Biblical?) and the term "Tewdrig map Theithfallt" (Theodoric son of Thieudebalth) are cultural anomalies in the British pedigrees. No amount of "imaginative fudging" by medieval "pedigree artists" could change a spade from a spade. Genealogist Darrell Wolcott has noted that Theithfall was not native to the isle. These men were foreigners, outsiders. They were positioned into Britain and Armorica by the Roman hierarchy and they became British kings by Imperial decree and not by lineal descent. What is important to us, I think, is that they were "late Roman" and probably commanded cavalry units just before the so-called "Roman abandonment."
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Medicus matt - 10-12-2009
Quote: But what was a Goth doing in Britain in the last decade of the 4th century? :
Funny you should say that.....
[url:2e1uedw1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8298825.stm[/url]
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 10-12-2009
I never imagined cavalry in Britain as lines of heavily-armored horsemen charging masses of infantry, in fact they may have used horses for mobility rather than combat. But, since the Romans had introduced cavalry into Britain and Britain eventually evolved the heavy feudal horse warrior like the rest of Europe, it's an interesting question what the links between them may have looked like . . . assuming there was an unbroken chain.
It's just as easy to imagine that the Roman- or Asian-style horse warrior of one era petered out and later the increasingly heavily armed and armored horse warrior of the Middle Ages arose from continental traditions and borrowings.
We can imagine all sorts of things--as this thread has indicated. The question is: what will the meager hard data of history support? The answer is, I'm afraid, not much.
But we can dream.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 10-13-2009
Quote:Alanus:35vv7zt1 Wrote:But what was a Goth doing in Britain in the last decade of the 4th century? :
Funny you should say that.....
[url:35vv7zt1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/8298825.stm[/url]
Matt,
That's more than coincidence! Here we have a person described as a "Goth," but there is no DNA to prove it. He could have just as well have been a Taifalus or an Alan, both tribes very "Gothic" and arriving from the areas of Walachia and the Balkans. He is described in the BBC article as a "mercenary," but he was more likely an auxilliary cavalryman and probably a young officer: ie he had high social status.
I suppose if I were to suggest that he was a probabale officer in the Equites Taifali Seniors or Juniors, there would be some screaming. 8)
But this dead Goth-Taifalus supports the idea that Theithfallt/Thiudebalth was certainly a Visigoth, as was his son Tewdrig/Theodoric. And amazingly, he was found in a mausoleum in Gloucestershire, the area where Thiudebalth lived. Was he in fact related to Thiudebalth, perhaps a son? They didn't even bury Saint Dubricius in a crypt. Anyway, it adds fuel to my scenario and I thank you for the tip.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 10-15-2009
Quote:But this dead Goth-Taifalus supports the idea that Theithfallt/Thiudebalth was certainly a Visigoth, as was his son Tewdrig/Theodoric.No more than it adds fuel to the fringe opinion that the name Vortigern has a relation to the name Fritigern. Vortigern, it may be needed to add, was linked to Gloucester by a 9th-c. source quoting an earlier pedigree.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 10-16-2009
Quote:Alanus:2b3b5uqc Wrote:But this dead Goth-Taifalus supports the idea that Theithfallt/Thiudebalth was certainly a Visigoth, as was his son Tewdrig/Theodoric.No more than it adds fuel to the fringe opinion that the name Vortigern has a relation to the name Fritigern. Vortigern, it may be needed to add, was linked to Gloucester by a 9th-c. source quoting an earlier pedigree.
I agree with half of your idea. There is linguistic confusion in reading the name Vortigern, which in Britonic must have meant something like "overlord" or "elevated tigernus," and Fritigern/Frithigernus which in Gothic meant "he who is desirous of faith" or something along that line. In the same vein, there are several interpretations of Riothamos, which could mean "prince of renewal" in Romano-Greek classical terms. But I find it difficult to assign Thiudebalth to P-Celtic, Frankish, or Saxon, or even the Ostrogoths. The name translates straight as the "the lordly Balth" or "princely Balth." The later spelling used by Morris-- Thiudebald-- is old High German, which did not exist in this timeframe. In some pedigrees (according to Darrell Wolcott) the man was born around 350-360, and in others around 470. As such, the earlier pedigree places his son Theodoric on par with the Visigothic Theodoric I, second ruler of the Kingdom of Toulouse, born around 390-400 and long before the name arrived in the western Germanic kingdoms. Perhaps I was too general in calling these men Visigoths, since they were born in the Tryfingi period and before the later designation.
Some historians might not agree, such as Sims-Williams, but I don't believe the scenario is a "fringe opinion." It is a "differing" opinion, just as we see in other endeavors such as those by Leslie Allcock and Francis Pryor. :wink:
In the same vein, there is no "proof" that either ala of the Equites Taifali reached Britain. If that's the case, then John Conyard has difficutly finding something to ride on. :lol:
I would rather think positive. It then accounts for two importand symbols, the dragon and the bear. And it gives the Welsh a flag to fly.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 10-16-2009
Quote:It's not my idea. :wink: Someone once told me about it, claiming of course that Vortigern, therefore''had to be' a Goth. I see only a resemblence in the sound, which I think is purely superficial. Of course, one could spin theories that Vortigern chose a Brythonic name simimilar to his Gothic name, but that would imho be extremely far-fetched.Vortigern Studies:3ux13h7z Wrote:I agree with half of your idea.Alanus:3ux13h7z Wrote:But this dead Goth-Taifalus supports the idea that Theithfallt/Thiudebalth was certainly a Visigoth, as was his son Tewdrig/Theodoric.No more than it adds fuel to the fringe opinion that the name Vortigern has a relation to the name Fritigern.
As to Teithfallt (let's call him by his name in the sources), sure, that could be a Brythonic version of Theodebald/Thiudebalth, but I've also heard opinions that it's derived from Theodosius, which is similar in meaning but would have been a lot more common in the region.
But I like the theory of John Morris, even though it lacks proof.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 10-17-2009
The strange thing about Morris is his placement of "Theodoric son of Thiudebald" into a timeframe that falls between that of the pedigrees. Somehow, he pictured Tewdrig as a Gothic ships-captain, a refugee from the Kingdom of Toulouse. And he confused two Tewdrigs into one. There was another Tewdrig (a tyrannus of Cornwall who kept a snake-pit to toss Irish monks into) who was the great-grand-nephew of Emyr Llydaw (John/Riothamus?).
I have copies of the Tewdrig ap Theithfallt pedigrees, 8 or 9 of them, and no two are the same. :roll:
The scribes really had a hard time fitting these guys into a niche. And Rice caught it as "a break in the pedigrees about the time the Romans departed." In most the pedigrees they are attached to the line of Ninniaw/Nennius but the generations vary up to three lifetimes. There is a grandfather or uncle, in three or four pedigees, who is recorded as Trythearn or Teithrin (Fritigern?). :?
Goths did have high positions in Britain. We find Nectaridus/Nectarid as Count of the Saxon Shore in 367 (Ammianus). My theory can't be proven, but it can't be summerily dismissed either-- there was a cultural/military infusion that brought the dragon and bear into Roman Britain, and the symbols were carried by the two Equites Taifali units. And there is more than a possibility that Theithfallt/Thiudebalth was the commander. It's theory. But it does explain the connections that could easily have spawned "the Bear" and the national flag of Wales. In that context-- theory-- it seems related to the sub-Roman cavalry.
Robert, there's more. Look for a private message.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Medicus matt - 10-21-2009
Quote:Anyway, it adds fuel to my scenario and I thank you for the tip.
Given the infuriating lack of relevent detail in the article I contacted a friend at Gloucester Museum who gave me this....
Quote:The suggestion that he may have been a `Goth' is just one suggestion and of the most likely barbarian groups it's one that more people have heard of so gets the most attention. He has been called the `Gloucester Goth' ever since he was found more than 35 years ago as a name rather than an assertion that he was a real Goth. The stable isotope and collagen analysis only revealed that he had a different diet to contemporary Romano-Britons and that he grew up in a cold climate to the east of a line roughly between where the Vistula enters the Baltic south to the Danube rather than demonstrating an ethnicity. I don't think that the metalwork has been reported on since 1975, so may need to be re-assessed.
I've got pictures of the finds somewhere if you're interested?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 10-21-2009
Quote:I've got pictures of the finds somewhere if you're interested?Please post them! But best not in this thread, but in this one, please.
If this 'Goth' is the one from Kingsholm, the museum missed some publications since 1975, one being that from HW Böhme in 1986.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 12-31-2009
Mr Campbel...Sincere apologies for not replying to your last replies to my posts which were both gratifyingly complimentary but also useful.
For some reason, I simply could not log in to the site and gave up totally after dozens of attempts. I am only here now because Iwas dredging for Polish sarmatian material and hit our mutuall dialogue. I tried again to check in and succeeded.
So..Happy New Year to you.
I must re read all your psted material but thanks for info on Taefali. I noted all the remarks on Malcor and K Artor. An old controversy that one and her web site fell apart in a welter of bitterness and accusations. But, she did do some good work, I have to say. I stay, now, on the hill overlookiong in Binchester fort and have started looking for Sarmatian tamgae already. Resultats Nihil! So far. But, we shall see. Heinrich Harke has retired from Readin Uni and is now out in Klin Yar etc every summer digging for Alans. Hopefully he will find what people like myself would wish to see. Ref: Ribchester and Jazyge troops its interesting that the nearest ancient pub to the old fort is not called The Black Pig or the Golden Lion or whatever...its called the White Bull..IE Sacred Sarmat draught animal. Hmmm. I have laid my mitts on a piece of evidence about Podolian Grey Cattle and disease that is fascinarting and I shall apprise you of results when I hve finished it.
What do you know about Kontus Sauromatus?? Length??? And why so long??
Best wishes and I hope you read this Rodi
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 01-02-2010
Hello Dashydog, Robert, Matt, and crew
I've been off the thread for awhile, working on a pre-Arthurian novel. I wondered what happened to Malcor's website. She writes fantasy fiction, which might suggest how extreme some theories might get. :roll: Too bad she never looked into the succeeding centuries for Sarmatian cavalry stuff in Britain itself.
John Conyard knows his contus. The length could reach a point of diminishing returns, ie too damned long, as it wobbled up and down. Seems to me it standardized at around 12 feet. Sorry for the US dimensions, maybe what?-- a little over 4 meters. Some theories claim it originated with Alexander's forces, but a contus-type halbred was used during the Warring States Period in China at the same time. More likely that the contus came from the mid-to-far east, since that's where the Saka, Sarmats, Alans, and evidently even the Magyars came from. Whether it was used to any extent in sub-Roman Britain? You've got me. I think not. The steppe composite bow seems to have lasted longer, if we can believe the polychome drawing in the c. 600 book of Vergil's works now in the Vatican library. These Britons look a lot like Romans.
Anyway, it's good to get back in touch. For me, it was a non-eventful and safe New Year. I had a glass of Valpolicella with spagetti. :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 01-02-2010
Nought wrong with spaghs and Valpolicella!! Robert!Salud!
Yes..this kontus thing really pickles mine brain. As you know, I have always been interested in linking sarmat ancestry into modern polish society (after 1450) .
When I look at illusatrations of Alans etc many of the pics are super detailed and accurate..serious stuff. The Kontus or lanca is very very long. It is more trhan 12 foot..more like 5.5. And I believe it is right. Why? Because it was designed to overcome the main "problem weapon" of the ubiquituous Greek military contractors with their sarissae en phalanx. This is interesting to me because in the 16 century, when traditional w European chivalry was failing with conventional equestrian knightly equipment due to the new pike formations that outreached the lanca or kontus, the Poles dropped all that kit and "re invented" their cavalry. That is how we got the Winged Husaria of military legend. They too had to deal with Sarissae/pikes of great length but also did it by out reaching them. They imported successful methods used against the Turks from Hungary. This included a super kontus of 5m+ length. And it was lethal for a very long time. How did they do it? Given the length? The kopia, as they called it, was hollow. The cav would turn up with their helpers and a good supply of spares, of course, it was still unwieldy and big, so they had a shoulder harness called a Wytoch. One band went to a cup holding the butt, another to a bridle further forrard than the left hand. So, the whole lance outfit swung through an arc pivoting on the right shoulder/chest. But, we are talking about massive lances.
Anyway, my point is this. That stuff really worked and there is nothing whatever in it that was beyong Alan or Sarmat technology..especially if roman army workshops were available. I ve read many accounts of peopel seeing Alans fiddling about at hip level with saddle likit and bits and pieces. All very hazy and inconclusive. To me, that what you would do with a wytoch.
REf Malcor...yes...kanal vision they call it. Pity. I hope your book on Artor is going well. I ve looked for tamgas at Ribchester but never found any. Arborea and Catterick are on my list for searches. Ref:composite bows, i ll bet the glue on them didnt last long in western Europ's filthy wet climate!!
Sorry to waffle at loength
Rodi