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+--- Thread: Sub-Roman Britain (Cavalry etc) (/showthread.php?tid=6780)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-05-2010
Yup..We all drift "off subject" and back to where we came from..some grim steppe. !!
Neighbours lending and borrowing? Of course this is the case and England is a classic example. Take marine terms alone. Vast amounts are Dutch, earlier ones (by origin not use) are Norsk, plenty are Roman and others are Vasco. Poland is literally awash with borrowed stuff. Words, German Law, Turco this and that..the list is endless. For all the blood letting, trade, money and wotsit are never stopped by "ethnic autonomy"..not for long.
I think, Alanus, you are right about the Czechs. They are regarded as slavs in the West but not so by the Poles and Russians who regard them as "different", shall we say etc. Thats partly traditional thinking but also to do with known histories.
There are folk who know a lot about this Celtic and metalwork thing. A disaster diaspora about 1200BC?? 1247? BC One that caused terrible civ collapses in Greece etc..lots of blank spots in history, rise of the Carians, Sea People, Hittites..the spread of metal and iron working specialists. Its not my thing but it is interesting.
R
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Agraes - 04-05-2010
Quote:Ok warning, we have descended to Sarmatian and Linda Melcor land again! However I have found something which will blow your minds. The Hilton of Cadbol stone. On it is a decpiction of South Pictish horsemen from the fith century (according to some of you guys they are very similar to northern Britons) who are using Roman stlye lancer shields, with a lance resting on the shoulder of at least one of them. Romanised dragon iconography borders the stone. But what is really striking is that the supposedly barbaric Picts (and by extent North Britons) Are wearing what appears to be Late Roman Togas. I don't know. If these are Picts in the north. How Romanised would Southern Britons be? Also this is the only example of written Pictish. I don't know, why don't you look into it.
http://fr.academic.ru/pictures/frwiki/7 ... boll01.JPG
It's a class-2 Pictish stone, probably 8-10th century in date, not 5th century at all, it has quite late interlaces which show northumbrian influence. Nothing roman. The garnments could simply be long shirts akin to the irish lèine, and cloaks wrapped around the body. Not necessarly togas.
The shields are... Round shields, which seems quite small, a style of shields depicted on much irish and pictish iconography of the 8-10th centuries. Not roman.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-05-2010
back to Benjamin and Roderic,
Quite an interesting stone, though. It appears as a semi-hunting scene, with hounds trying to down a deer, either a doe or spike-horn. The shields were used by just about everyone at this time, and we should never judge a spear/hasta/pilum by its length on a carved stone or graffitio. There's never enough room to show true length.
Check out the side scrolling-- full of gryphons, once a mythical steppe animal only. Things get around, don't they. :lol:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-11-2010
everyone at this time, and we should never judge a spear/hasta/pilum by its length on a carved stone or graffitio. There's never enough room to show true length.
Now..THats a point. I do think a lot of illustrations etc show lances and similar as being far shorter than they were in truth..as you say..for lack of space. But, I have some illustrations where the lance really is very long indeed. Now, I think that is deliberate and designed to make a big point for the record.
Check out the side scrolling-- full of gryphons, once a mythical steppe animal only. Things get around, don't they. :lol:
Gryfons are a strange auld tale. "Far and distant places" always seem to be guarded by horrible monsters in human mythology. It comes with the territoire it seems. But Gryfons always make me think that some copper age witch doctor was involved with "magic dress up" ceremonies or something.... The steppe peoples seem to have had much in common with the ancient Amereican indians who, I think, were into this sort of thing. Roerich the Russian artist and academic seems to have been well versed in such things, though I cant recall his exact musings on it all.
AZnyway. That aside, what do you know about Gwerman sword makeres of the mid saxon period and the metalwork from North Tronderlag?? I am working on a premise that Roman armaments trades fell apart after 450 AD and with it the the Celto Brito industries in such things...leaving things open for well armed Saxons to take over because they had a monopoly on the UK arms game.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-14-2010
Well, perhaps you're right. Could be that Celto-British swordmaking slowed down after the mid 5th century... if, in fact, British swordmaking was ever an industry at all. :wink: There are no records or signs of it, unless you believe novelists like Jack Whyte. At this time, as you say, the official Western Roman fabricators disappeared.
However, excellent swords were still made on the Continent. Yes, many were apparently made by the Germans: evidently the Franks and Alemanni, and perhaps the Gauls and Italians.These are the "Black Sea" styled models that are so well-recorded in archaeology, such as the one in Childeric's grave. A bunch of these swords have been photographed and also offered for sale by big-time antiquities dealers. They all have straight grip-checks, predecessors of the cruxiform sword (as opposed to the Saxon-Northman types), with fancy sheet silver or gold hilts. Half of those made had Indic jewel insets. And the steel itself may have also arrived from the east in blank bars. Even the so-called "famed" Viking sword-makers used blanks which came from Pakistan. Good "late" steel appears to arrive from beyond Europe itself, and the designs of many 4th to 6th century swords appear to be influenced by those of the Han Dynasty. Not much British in real archaeology.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 04-14-2010
Quote: And the steel itself may have also arrived from the east in blank bars. Even the so-called "famed" Viking sword-makers used blanks which came from Pakistan. Good "late" steel appears to arrive from beyond Europe itself, and the designs of many 4th to 6th century swords appear to be influenced by those of the Han Dynasty.
I would appreciate a reference for this please?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Medicus matt - 04-14-2010
Quote:Alanus:1p8zrsyj Wrote:And the steel itself may have also arrived from the east in blank bars. Even the so-called "famed" Viking sword-makers used blanks which came from Pakistan. Good "late" steel appears to arrive from beyond Europe itself, and the designs of many 4th to 6th century swords appear to be influenced by those of the Han Dynasty.
I would appreciate a reference for this please?
[url:1p8zrsyj]http://www.physorg.com/news150373962.html[/url]
Obviously not all scandinavian swords were made using imported materials, which is why some of them bent so easily.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Conal - 04-14-2010
It appears that 8th century stuff came from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan which is a lot closer than pakistan.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-14-2010
That was a very interesting link. I wonder what info they could provide on Roman equipment.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-14-2010
Hi....Hmmmmm. North Trondelag I mention because of it's spear points and other metalwork of military type that was found in Danish mires. (Vewnnolum pattern)..all this connected with "sword producers" Wagnijo and Nipijo.
The link for Wallace Collection was interesting, but, I felt, no more than that.
We dont know what went on with Swedish lake ores which are a good source of tool steel..or were. Trondelag would be similar maybe.
The "Indian" steels can be mixed in with Damascus swords which were made with Wootz...from India (Kerala??). As Alanus says, there was a billet trade and I imagine there were several such, of different sorts, with Wootz being but one.
It interests me because with the Bryto Roman demise in, say, 500 to 550, one can envisage an arms trades collapse at a time when warfare breaks out on a grand scale.
A lot of weapons were needed and a lot were, obviously, supplied. Where from? I ask. By who?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Medicus matt - 04-14-2010
Quote:A lot of weapons were needed and a lot were, obviously, supplied. Where from? I ask. By who?
I'd imagine that the vast majority of weapons would have been spears, the manufacture of which requires neither a specialised manufacturing supply base nor particularly good quality metal.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 04-14-2010
Finally! Something I'm qualified in... Dark Age weaponry. Yes the spear was a favourite weapon among Saxons and British alike. Actually (I believe this was in either Blake or Scott Loyd's book "Pendragon" [sp?]) I believe that an elm shaft about seven feet long, sharpened and hardened in fire, was the favourite weapon of the British in the kingdom of Gwynedd and in Powys, where originl Celtic culture was revived by semi-romanised Votadini settlers from the north came to hold the land. also, elm javelins were popular, they just whitled the sticks until they were thin enough to slip through mail. Also they apparently threw these lances/javelins/spears from horseback. Actually a Welsh tale of King Arthur had him leaning on his shield, exhuasted, after the Battle of Camllan and this guy comes out of nowhere with one of these javelins on horseback, throws it, and it slips through his armour injuring him mortally. Arthurisms aside (it was the only example I had) the spear does seem to have been the staple weapon in 5th century Britain. Also in the southern kingdoms they seemed to have used spears of all different kinds with all sorts of jagged spearheads to leave nasty injuries on their way out.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 04-14-2010
Quote: Finally! Something I'm qualified in...
Are you? Why?
Quote:I believe that an elm shaft about seven feet long, sharpened and hardened in fire, was the favourite weapon of the British in the kingdom of Gwynedd and in Powys...Indeed? Sources for that?
Elm? Not ash?
Quote:where originl Celtic culture was revived by semi-romanised Votadini settlers from the north came to hold the land.
I know that Welsh Medieval tradition speaks of the Votadini migration, but so far archaeological evidence seems to be lacking.
Besides, how can semi-Romanised people revive 'original celtic culture' (whatever you mean by that)?
Quote:Actually a Welsh tale of King Arthur had him leaning on his shield, exhuasted, after the Battle of Camllan and this guy comes out of nowhere with one of these javelins on horseback, throws it, and it slips through his armour injuring him mortally. Arthurisms aside (it was the only example I had)
You just HAD to bring the guy up again!
Source for that Welsh tale? I'm interested to hear about that horseman.
Quote: ..the spear does seem to have been the staple weapon in 5th century Britain. Also in the southern kingdoms they seemed to have used spears of all different kinds with all sorts of jagged spearheads to leave nasty injuries on their way out.Well, you may be surprised to hear this (or not), the spear (not the sword) was the main weapon of most if not all armies in Antiquity.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 04-14-2010
Arfur needs a bit of serbian style ethnic cleansing, methinks! I have this recurring nightmare where I die and go to heaven, only to find everyone is called ruddy Arthur!!
Aneeeeeway, BACK to s rom Brit cav. (Alstublijft)
Haarke has made it pretty clear that Saxons practised what he calls "Apartheid" in their newly acquired post Roman English state..and gained/exercised control with small numbers, relatively speaking.
That means folk with advanced "better" weapons. And, it seems, the sword was a "restricted" weapon. That has to be for a good reason. Ie Cost, maintaining power and authority. My surmise is that they they did this thanks to their superior Frijs/Ingaphone/Kazuby/Hansebund trading system that gave them access to the best kit. There was a lot of good kit, we know, in the lower rhine basin and in Denmark.
Key elite foreign troops fight with good metal weapons and not wooden spears, at this time. Wooden spears would be fine for poorly armoured peasant levies..or even a rival fyrd. To deal with a professional armed thug from Bornholm, you d need better I think.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 04-14-2010
Quote:It appears that 8th century stuff came from Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan which is a lot closer than pakistan.
I apologize for having said Pakistan when I meant Afganistan. However, the geography of "Turkmenistan" still remains nebulous, and Pakistan and Afganistan are not further away from Europe than is Uzbekistan. What is obvious-- shown from the link supplied by Medicus Matt-- is that the higher-quality carbon steel arrived into Europe via iron-working industries situated or accessible to the Silk Road. The same "best iron" is mentioned by Pliny as "coming on the camels from Serica." This trade route is about a millenium older than we thought it was; and the Indic semi-precious stones that studded the Black Sea styled swords and countless European brooches came along the same road that the carbon steel did.
If I hear about Camlaunn again, I'm going to get sick. :evil:
On a lighter note, you can still buy an excellent Wootz steel sword from Paul Chen. A little expensive.
hock: