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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
Quote:The Norsemen peat bog process of smelting added silica into the mix when forging. This would add some form of rust resistance at least until about the third forging. Thus the blade being cast back into the lake according to Arthurian legend.
Let's not forget the magical Excalibur. :lol:
Well, the sword subject is a sore one, depending if you are a Celticist using corrupted medieval ms to post your case, or whether you are someone looking for an introduced source. One thing is historically clear, Celtic swordmaking was centered east of the Jura, not in Britain. The only documented Excalibur-type sword belonged to Morgan (grandson of Theodoric/Tewdrig), a Black Sea styled sword worth 70 cows, valued today as $46,000.
My guess is that both swords-- the Lady of the Lake's Excalibur, and the Sword in the Stone-- may have been a singular sword with duel functions. The etymological viability of Caliburnus is no truer than "Exchalybur," the last easy enough to denote "from chalybis" (read as "superior steel") or "from the Chalybes." In view of the well-recorded ritual sword Tyrfing, the mythical sword Excalibur could be grounded in fact. And the cultural connection swings to the Alans, Taifali, and Tyrfingi Goths, all of whom are prime candidates for late Roman cavalrymen in Britain.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010
There are many Japanese armors that could be worn today. If the museums would let us of course!!! :lol: Medieval society in Japan is only 150 years prior and most armors that still exist are in decent shape. Granted most are heirlooms that are well taken care of.
The light-hearted jokes about Excalibur aside; there are many similarities in the legends which have some ring of truth to them. The sword in the stone is just that. Smelting the iron ore from rocks would draw it forth. Many myths interpretations
can go many ways. I like the Alani connection and will be researching more on it myself. I have picked up vague refrences before while reading so I do not have enough knowledge on them to post anything factual. Is there anywhere to start?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
Ron!
Haven't heard from you in awhile!
You're right-on with stirrups. The Indian version was a leather loop, not much like the Chinese style, c. AD 330, which went west and entered Europe through the Moors and Avars. Of course, I get a kick out of seeing actors portraying Alexander the Great in stirrups, perhaps while riding to the camp of Thalestris for a little fun and games. :lol:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
Quote:There are many Japanese armors that could be worn today. If the museums would let us of course!!! :lol: Medieval society in Japan is only 150 years prior and most armors that still exist are in decent shape. Granted most are heirlooms that are well taken care of.
Most of the Japanese armor was fashioned around a leather base, the most fragile of armor over a projected period of time. So, as you hint, a post-Roman British cavalry would still be using "grandfather's" old outfit.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010
The Sarmatian armor would not be that different in materials and construction to the Samurai lamellar. I am unsure of the Alani armor and the Saxons I know used primarily maille. I must admit I am more knowledgeable with Far Eastern armors and weaponry due to martial arts but there are similarities. The Japanese used maille 3 in 1 pattern for armpits and such. The Ninja used cloth or leather with metal plates sewn to it. (see Osprey) The Chinese had the star pattern lamellar that interlocked. That is some interesting stuff! So what major differences where there besides cultural influence and types of metal working?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
I think all three types of armor was used in post-Roman Britain, just as it was previously. Scale armor is shown on really old carved frescoes in Rome; it is depicted again on the British ms of Vergil in the Vatican. We have lamellar armor in the Museums of Scotland; and naturally, chainmail is a given.
As far as I can tell, in post-Roman (sub-Roman) Britain, nothing changes except a very gradual abandonment of villas. The Vicky idea that-- Pow!-- once the Romans left, the entire island reverted to paganism, Celtic sword-dancing, and talking with a brogue, is now so comical that we hardly find time to finish our haggis. :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010
Haggis! What is Haggis? - Ramirez
Sheep's stomach stuffed with meat and barley. - Connor
And what do you do with it? - Ramirez
You EAT it! - Connor
That's Revolting!!! - Ramirez
Christopher Lambert and Sir Sean Connery in Highlander :!: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I hadn't known of British lamellar; can you direct me towards any photos?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
Ah yes. Christopher Lambert and Sean Connery-- the world's worst and best actor in a single movie. :?
If my interpretation of lamellar is overlapping bands, as opposed to plate armor, then look in the Late Roman Cavalry book by Ospray. Color and b & w.
In fact, plate armor doesn't show well, historically, in the West. It was used by the Massagetae and probably some of their descendents, the Alani, but specific examples have escaped me. I want to make two-tiered shoulder leathers with rectangular steel plates, then wearing it attached over my chainmail. Certainly, someone was wearing the style upon European ground, but no confirmations yet.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - cagwinn - 05-20-2010
Quote:My guess is that both swords-- the Lady of the Lake's Excalibur, and the Sword in the Stone-- may have been a singular sword with duel functions. The etymological viability of Caliburnus is no truer than "Exchalybur," the last easy enough to denote "from chalybis" (read as "superior steel") or "from the Chalybes." In view of the well-recorded ritual sword Tyrfing, the mythical sword Excalibur could be grounded in fact. And the cultural connection swings to the Alans, Taifali, and Tyrfingi Goths, all of whom are prime candidates for late Roman cavalrymen in Britain.
Geoffrey's Caliburnus certainly comes from Welsh Caledfwlch (Old Welsh ^Caletbulc "Hard/Battle Rending), which is either derived from, or cognate with, Irish Caladbolg (a famous sword mentioned in Irish literature centuries before Geoffrey was born). All other non-Celtic etymologies are spurious at best.
- Chris Gwinn
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 05-20-2010
Message to all: we're talking about cavalry here, so please (again!) no more Arthurs, Excaliburs or Ladies of the Lake please. If you must, there's the OT section.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010
In the case of cavalry in Britain "Are there any period horse armors from the Alani, Romans or Sarmatians?" Probably very rare if at all but tends to be an ethnic marker from what I have seen. We could cross reference samples ( if available )to get a better idea. There is also DNA testing for what we do have. But from what I understand is a pain to get done.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-20-2010
As far as I know, no significant horse armor has been found in Britain. There is a nice horse helmet in one of the museums but it's early Celtic. Good horse armor, intact, has been found at Duro Europa, a long distance from the isle.
There might be some armor along this line at the Museums of Scotland. Maybe. 8)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 05-20-2010
Alanus,
Thank-you for your opinions. But the sword side-track did prove to be interesting... if king Morgan of Gwent (A grandson of Athrwys of Gwent I think) was using a Sarmatian style sword would that particular sword type have been popular in Southern Britain? Would it have been standard equipment for horse-riding noblemen? And would it have been popular anywhere else? IE. The western kingdoms in Wales, the northern kingdoms, but probably not the eastern kingdoms which were being heavily influenced by the Anglo-Saxon tribes.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010
The sword angle was definitely a good side track! I am still looking up bits and pieces from those posts. Alot of information to look at and very interesting references in spite of King Arthur mythology. The Sarmatian type sword is what exactly?
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010
I am unsure of the runic translation in this. Is this relevant to what we are discussing?