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+--- Thread: Leather Cuirass (/showthread.php?tid=7315)
Re: Leather Cuirass - Anonymous - 05-01-2007
For my part, I'm not seeing this statue as evidence either for or against leather cuirasses. What I have said about it is concerned solely with its failure to depict the armour accurately. The form-hugging armholes don't match up with the projecting abdominal edge. Even if we assume this to be an artistic convention, a contradiction has been built into the piece and that's what I said at out-set.
Re: Leather Cuirass - geala - 05-02-2007
We are back where we had been two pages before?
As I said and Giannis also implied, the different technique for the lower edge and the edges at the arms could be a tribut to the suggested position of the sculpture on a elevated base or something like this.
Or perhaps just money was too low or ran out to form the upper edges. Silly explanation, but live is (and was) strange sometimes...
So one can explain the piece as simply another example of a metal breastplate. It is not a proof for leather armour (what meinpanzer never said, I don't understand Magnus totally); it could perhaps be used as a weak hint. But I believe a metal cuirass should be depicted.
Leather Cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-06-2007
Here is a radical thought ! ( And I hasten to add not mine alone nor am I the first to put this forward )
The bulk of Greek non-metal cuirasses are thought of as made of linen since around the end of the 6th century. This is due to the use of the term 'linothorakes' by various ancient authors, initially I believe, by Herodotus, who describes it as being of egyptian origin (logically enough, since flax is a common crop in fertile Egypt ).
But could this be true of Greece? Flax requires many acres, a lot of water, and is labour intensive . Furthermore there is no evidence of flax being grown in any quantity in mountainous Classical Greece. Did the city states have enough money to import vast quantities of flax/linen to equip it's citizen soldiers? (Each linothorax requires many, up to 15, layers to make a single cuirass - see Matthew Amt's article on reconstruction for the large amount necessary, and the difficulties involved.)
More importantly, a much cheaper alternative was avilable to a Greek 'Polis' -leather. It was just as strong and a 1cm thick cuirass gives just as much protection as a multi layer linen one at a fraction of the cost - cattle and hides were plentiful in Greece ( especially compared to linen ). Could the term "lino thorax" have come to mean a corselet shaped like an Egyptian linen one , regardless of material ?
There is further evidence. The term 'spolas/spolades' occurs with almost equal frequency as a description of body armour. Many lexicons agree this term refers to 'a leather garment'. Thucydides and Xenophon both describe the Spartan body armour as the 'spolas',and the appearance of the usual body armour on Athenian trophy monuments confirms the 'spolas' was 'linothorax' shaped ( these are associated with the lacedemonian 'pilos' helmet).
Any re-enactor who has made his 'linothorax' of leather will tell you in addition how much easier his construction was.
Hypothesis? ( heresy?): the greek 'lino thorax' was shaped like the Egytian linen corselet but the vast majority made locally of leather, with perhaps a few expensive high status items fully imported for the wealthy.
Since the majority were painted/decorated the colour is no indication in Art.
regards, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Re: Leather Cuirass - Tarbicus - 05-06-2007
Quote:This is due to the use of the term 'linothorakes' by various ancient authors, initially I believe, by Herodotus, who describes it as being of egyptian origin (logically enough, since flax is a common crop in fertile Egypt ).But Herodotus was a contemporary of the armour. There's no reason to suppose his description is mistaken.
Quote:But could this be true of Greece? Flax requires many acres, a lot of water, and is labour intensive . Furthermore there is no evidence of flax being grown in any quantity in mountainous Classical Greece. Did the city states have enough money to import vast quantities of flax/linen to equip it's citizen soldiers? (Each linothorax requires many, up to 15, layers to make a single cuirass - see Matthew Amt's article on reconstruction for the large amount necessary, and the difficulties involved.)Look around your house and figure out how much of your possessions, including clothing, is imported from China or a similar major exporter of goods. You're assuming linen was expensive, but if it was extremely cheap to buy (Egypt specialised in textile production, I thought, with vast resources to make it), and trade was easy, I don't see an issue. All we have these days is the ability to transport the goods over greater distances in a shorter time period, but the principals of trade are the same.
Quote:More importantly, a much cheaper alternative was avilable to a Greek 'Polis' -leather....I'm staying away from that one. :wink:
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-06-2007
Paul,please,read through all the pages in the "linothorax again" thread here in the Greek section.Here I can only say that I disagree but instead of writing pages of arguements you better go there.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Leather Cuirass - Jason Hoffman - 05-06-2007
I believe people continue to overlook one basic problem of the linen/leather argument, leather is really poor at stopping anything going directly through it.
Jason
Leather cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-06-2007
I shall try to support my "heretical" hypothesis :-
To all - whatever happened to an open mind? The reaction is exactly what I expected - howls of protest without any factual support.
To Tarbicus; I wasn't arguing that Herodotus was wrong in saying that the linothorax originated in Egypt - as usual, you have 'zoomed' in on one part without considering the whole. Always look before you leap ! a HEALTHY SKEPTICISM IS A GOOD THING and like you, I like to see things proven logically before I accept them BUT where is the evidence that the GREEK linothrax was made of linen? NIL ! ZERO !
Secondly to compare 21st century trade/economies with even 20th century patterns is dangerous, let alone ancient times , is both dangerous and ludicrous - there is overwhelming evidence that trade in Classical times was very different and far more expensive ( if only because of the risk of shipwreck) than later times.
Ergo, imported linen was cheaper than local leather.
To Giannis: I am thoroughly familiar with the thread you mention which is long and tedious on modern experimentation, and speculation, but very short on provable ancient fact!
I have seen many theses on arrow penetration versus textile armour - none agree and all come to vastly different conclusions. The thread you refer to has nothing to say about the PROVABLE construction of classical greek thorakes ,and , for example , the theory of ballistic qualities was unimportant to an Athenian citizen scratching a living from his farm - he was interested in what he could afford ( the cattle hide from his latest sacrifice) than expensive linen imports, or the theoretical ballistic qualities - unknown in his time in any event- and looking good at the festivals ( achieved by a leather cuirass covered in one layer of linen -compare gold-plated jewellery in our own time). That thread does not allow us to reach any conclusions, or even put forward workable hypotheses........
To Jason:- where is your evidence that leather is poor compared to linen as protection, especially when leather is likely to have been so much more accesible/cheaper in Greece than Linen ? The more so when so-called ballistic analyses cannot agree.....
Let's see some evidence.....
regards to all, Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Stafff
Re: Leather Cuirass - Paullus Scipio - 05-06-2007
Sorry, "Ergo, imported linen was NOT cheaper than local leather" is what it should have read!
Paullus Scipio/Paul McDonnell-Staff
Re: Leather Cuirass - hoplite14gr - 05-06-2007
On leather protection:
One forum member has done an experimet on leather protection with photos in the "Reconstruction section". The results were amazing.
In classical period flaxand olive trees were easier to cultivate in the rugged Greek terrain so linothorax apart from literally and exavation evidence was a reality.
Also the maritime powers and the colonies had money to affor imports of lots of things.
The question in my opinion is "Did hide armor existed?"
Some form of "sub armalis" / YPOTHORAKION existed for metal armor.
There is also the musterious "spolas"-open to speculation.
He have hide shields from Homer and later light infantry had perhaps hide shields.
But were there armored troops with hide-based armor?
Probably yes. The question is what evidence do we have on "hide armor".
Most of it si cercumstantial and the argument for "hide armor" goes into plausible but nothing definite.
Kind regards
Re: Leather cuirass - Tarbicus - 05-06-2007
Quote:To Tarbicus; I wasn't arguing that Herodotus was wrong in saying that the linothorax originated in Egypt - as usual, you have 'zoomed' in on one part without considering the whole. Always look before you leap ! a HEALTHY SKEPTICISM IS A GOOD THING and like you, I like to see things proven logically before I accept them BUT where is the evidence that the GREEK linothrax was made of linen? NIL ! ZERO !I only pointed out a possible flaw in your theory of there being such a low probability that linen would be available. You were the one not taking into account the wider picture, which includes trading. No need to get your knickers in a twist.
Quote:there is overwhelming evidence that trade in Classical times was very different and far more expensive ( if only because of the risk of shipwreck) than later times.I would put any great expense being more attributable to how many middle-men there were trading the same goods until it reached its final destination. No different to today.
Quote:To all - whatever happened to an open mind? The reaction is exactly what I expected - howls of protest without any factual support.Just to add: There are no "howls of protest". There's just next to nothing to back your theory up with. I suspect the VI Feratta were the first legion to wear segs, but it's nigh impossible to prove right now so I'd never expect anyone else to accept the theory.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Giannis K. Hoplite - 05-06-2007
Paul,I know it's a bit difficult that you are opposed to a number of members and you have to "cover" every ones' arguements,but there are counter arguements that you ignore.For example we have heard of that "famous" linothorax find from Thebes,of 15 layers of linen(though no one has seen it,it's true).Another one,Remember that Athens was able to provide its citizens all the goods needed for many years when Sparta was in Attica in the Peloponnesian War.And all that was imported from far away!Trading provided their every day food,don't you find it logical that it could provide them with enough linen for a linothorax.Think that a linothorax was probably expensive(like the rest of the armour) and some times passed from father to son.It was not a piece that everyone made for himself like modern re-enactors.So there was no need for so much linen as you say.But don't we know that even their clothes were made of linen or cotton(cotton being much more frequent)?
The experiments in that thread was not so different,all agreed that linen was more resistant to dory and knife attacks.
And after all,you say we don't have one piece of evidence supporting the linen theory,but you have even less,and what you say is also speculation.It is something that is logical one the one hand but there are all these arguements against it that you cannot ignore.So you cannot "blaim" me for not accepting a new theory while the old one has still more value(to my eyes)
Leather is not ready for use after you kill an animal.and even so when you want to make something as thick and hard for armour.It always was expensive and more Greeks prefered to keep their animals for other reasons than kill them to equip their armies.Not to mention that we know there were not so many goatsmen in ancient Greece and the proffesion was not much apreciated among ancient scociety(look at Plato's "Politeia")
I'm just saying it's not a very strong theiory.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-06-2007
Quote:For example we have heard of that "famous" linothorax find from Thebes,of 15 layers of linen(though no one has seen it,it's true).
Do you know of any publications that cover this? I've never even heard of it before.
Re: Leather Cuirass - Dan Howard - 05-06-2007
It isn't published yet and is unlikely to be for many years. The dig is ongoing.
Re: Leather Cuirass - MeinPanzer - 05-06-2007
Quote:It isn't published yet and is unlikely to be for many years. The dig is ongoing.
How did you guys hear about it? When was it discovered? Any idea to when it was dated (C14 dating should be able to provide a very solid date, hopefully)?
Re: Leather Cuirass - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-07-2007
I thought the Thebes area looked interesting....... no wonder my relatives wafted past dismissively! :lol: :lol: