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Wheeling the phalanx - Severus - 11-07-2006
Gentlemen (and Ladies?),
I have been wondering how long it would take for a drilled phalanx to perform a 90 degree turn or to "about face", would this be an all day affair or something quick and somewhat easy? Any historical or re-enactment info would be appreciated. . .
I am assuming a legion (with it's homogeneous equipment) could more easily reorder itself to face right, left, or about face.
Looking forward to any help I can get.
Matt Webster
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Robert Vermaat - 11-07-2006
Why would this be a problem? I assume all lifted their lances and faced in another direction? That's 'about face', right?
Or do you mean a wheel where the front line remains the front line, with one man standing still and the ones at the other end make a 90-degree turn?
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Tib. Gabinius - 11-07-2006
To bring the front in a 90° "Schwenk" (sorry i dont remember the english word right now) to face e.g. an attack in the flanks a greek phalanx or also a macedonian took real long. The romans won the macedonian wars about that fact, cause the mac. formed their battle line to slow and opened their flanks. Also the roman infantery needed time to get into position for that attack the mac. hadnt the chance to rebuild.
If you mean roman formations, which arent same, so it depend on what kind of unit you deploy and how deep it is.
Anyway, it tooks to long to face a fast attack.
Take a look on different groups sides, where you will see marching romans in videos and get an impression how long these mostly small groups take.
Also a visit in the momentary army show you how long big units need to get the front arund.
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Severus - 11-07-2006
Quote:Why would this be a problem? I assume all lifted their lances and faced in another direction? That's 'about face', right?
V.S. I don't know. I am not sure if each rank of the phalanx has an equal length of spears. If they are all equipped the same I would assume a simple pivot 90 degrees would be simpler but again my knowledge of the phalanx is pretty limited. . .If they had different length pikes and had to be arrayed very specifically then a 90 or 180 turn would be much more involved of a maneuver.
Quote:Or do you mean a wheel where the front line remains the front line, with one man standing still and the ones at the other end make a 90-degree turn?
I was not asking about a wheel, but heck! I'd be interested to know how well a phalanx could wheel if anyone cares to offer that up as well. . .
T. Gabinus, thanks for the answer but I was looking for something more specific than "real long" . . . for example if the phalanx saw an enemy approaching from their flank at about 500 yards could they reorder themselves in time to face that enemy head on? Would it be a matter of seconds (10, 20, 30) or are we talking several minutes or more to reorder the phalanx?
Thanks for the speedy replies!
Matt Webster
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Tarbicus - 11-07-2006
Believe it or not, but this simulates quite well in Rome: Total War. The AI makes the phalangites raise their sarissas, each man individually turns 90 degrees, and then lower their sarissas again. However, it can take a while, and I've managed to outflank a phalanx by having a century of Romans appear to be marching to attack another phalanx whilst the real target one is engaged at the front. Then I turn the Romans suddenly and make them attack the flanks or rear at a run. Bedlam, and it usually works. The only thing then to do is watch for another phalanx coming up in support, in which case you do the same with another unit, or keep pounding the new phalanx with missiles. :twisted:
Just to illustrate how the AI works, if I retreat my velites through the hastati, every other file of the hastati will step into the file next to it. I actually don't think it's programmed per se, as the velites can also be coming through at an angle and the hastati will shift about to suit. I've also hacked the unit formations to give different spacing between the men, and the actions can vary depending on that spacing.
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - hoplite14gr - 11-07-2006
If your spear/pike phalanx is in open order the commands:
EPI DORI KLINE (turn to your spear i.e right) or
EPI ASPIDII KLINE (turn to your shield i.e leftt) can turn the trooper in 90 degrees in a matter of seconds.
METAVOLI = about face can change the frontage 180 degrees also in a matter of seconds.
I demonstrated all of them in Watford as an individual and we have trid them in Greece in formation. No big deal.
If you are in locked shields formation, then you are in deep trouble.
Only under the assumption that you are not engaged by an enemy you mast fall in open order and then execute the above commands.
Spartans and crack merecenaries would achieve British Guards "fall in
square" in about 2 minutes. The others....well....tough.
Pikes formation would need probably 4 minutes. If they were outflanked by an enemy in 100 meters or less they were toast!
Kind regards
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Severus - 11-07-2006
Quote:If your spear/pike phalanx is in open order the commands:
EPI DORI KLINE (turn to your spear i.e right) or
EPI ASPIDII KLINE (turn to your shield i.e leftt) can turn the trooper in 90 degrees in a matter of seconds.
METAVOLI = about face can change the frontage 180 degrees also in a matter of seconds.
Interesting. I am assuming by this statement that phalangites are not assigned to a particular rank and the rearmost soldier is equally adept (and properly equipped to be) serving in the front rank?
Quote: If you are in locked shields formation, then you are in deep trouble.
Only under the assumption that you are not engaged by an enemy you mast fall in open order and then execute the above commands.
Spartans and crack merecenaries would achieve British Guards "fall in
square" in about 2 minutes. The others....well....tough.
Pikes formation would need probably 4 minutes. If they were outflanked by an enemy in 100 meters or less they were toast!
Kind regards
Not exactly sure what British Guards "fall in" means. Care to elaborate?
So 2 minutes for elite troops to go from a front facing battle array to an entirely different direction? 4 minutes for the less trained. . .
Any images of your recreation that I could check out.
Wonderful stuff, thanks so much.
Matt Webster
P.S. Tarbicus Rome Total War makes it look so easy. I wondered if it was true.
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Aryaman2 - 11-07-2006
The main factor in wheeling a phalanx, as any other formation, is the frontage, obviously the longer the frontage the longer it takes to wheel. In this respect, an XVIII century Battalion 800 strong deployed in 3 lines would take longer to wheel that a phalanx 800 strong. Eqipment here is pf little consideration (I am sure reenactors will agree with me here, the hoplite panoply doesn´t really hinder the capacity of manouver of the phalanx). The main added factor at anytime would be drill level.
In battles a flank attack would usually take place when the unit was engaged at the front, otherwise it is not that difficult to detach a subunit to cover the flank instead of wheeling the entire unit.
The comparison with the Roman Legion is not fair, the phalanx is a tactic unit, the legion is an opreational level unit, with different types of troops, the flanks of legions were usually secured by cavalry, and so were the flanks of phalanx.
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Aryaman2 - 11-07-2006
Quote:If your spear/pike phalanx is in open order the commands:Stefanos, that means that the soldiers in a phalanx would take any place in it, is that a sure fact? I mean, taking as a comparison the pikemen squares XV-XVII centuries, soldiers had their determined place, and to turn 180º the formation had to perform countermarch.
EPI DORI KLINE (turn to your spear i.e right) or
EPI ASPIDII KLINE (turn to your shield i.e leftt) can turn the trooper in 90 degrees in a matter of seconds.
METAVOLI = about face can change the frontage 180 degrees also in a matter of seconds.
I demonstrated all of them in Watford as an individual and we have trid them in Greece in formation. No big deal.
If you are in locked shields formation, then you are in deep trouble.
Only under the assumption that you are not engaged by an enemy you mast fall in open order and then execute the above commands.
Spartans and crack merecenaries would achieve British Guards "fall in
square" in about 2 minutes. The others....well....tough.
Pikes formation would need probably 4 minutes. If they were outflanked by an enemy in 100 meters or less they were toast!
Kind regards
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Severus - 11-07-2006
Quote:The main factor in wheeling a phalanx, as any other formation, is the frontage, obviously the longer the frontage the longer it takes to wheel. In this respect, an XVIII century Battalion 800 strong deployed in 3 lines would take longer to wheel that a phalanx 800 strong.
No argument there. The main question was to reform the phalanx to face a threat to the immediate right, left or rear of the formation. Does the phalanx wheel to face a different direction or does it "reform" (break formation and regroup facing in a new direction)? I would assume "wheeling" would require more time and force the unit to move too far from its original placement.
Quote:Eqipment here is pf little consideration (I am sure reenactors will agree with me here, the hoplite panoply doesn´t really hinder the capacity of manouver of the phalanx). The main added factor at anytime would be drill level.
I don't believe that the phalangites would be hindered by their equipment my question is "if they were armed with varying length pikes (back rankers with longer ones) would the unit be incapable of simply turning 180 degrees so their rear rank quickly became their front?" If they have the same equipment would this sudden turn still be feasible?
Quote:In battles a flank attack would usually take place when the unit was engaged at the front, otherwise it is not that difficult to detach a subunit to cover the flank instead of wheeling the entire unit.
a subunit? A unit broken off from the phalanx or another unit from the same army (for example peltasts)? Not sure what you mean. My question stems from a discussion that phalanxes had a difficult time turning themselves to face oncoming threats, even when unengaged.
My question is "If the phalanx needed to could it turn quickly enough to face an oncoming enemy that was approaching it's flank/rear? Or would it be hopelessly disordered or incapable of reforming (not wheeling) to meet the threat head on?"
Quote:The comparison with the Roman Legion is not fair, the phalanx is a tactic unit, the legion is an opreational level unit, with different types of troops, the flanks of legions were usually secured by cavalry, and so were the flanks of phalanx.
I did not mean to compare the phalanx with the legion but to compare the phalanx with the cohort. . .Roman flanks were often stripped bare after their cavalry support turned tail and ran. cohorts had the ability to quickly redeploy and meet the new threat. Did the phalanx have any chance of this same kind of ability?
Matt Webster
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Severus - 11-07-2006
Quote:Stefanos, that means that the soldiers in a phalanx would take any place in it, is that a sure fact? I mean, taking as a comparison the pikemen squares XV-XVII centuries, soldiers had their determined place, and to turn 180º the formation had to perform countermarch.
How difficult or time consuming would a countermarch be for a phalanx? Would it be possible in the midst of a battle? (assuming, of course, that the phalanx was not engaged in melee at the time)
Matt Webster
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - hoplite14gr - 11-07-2006
British Napoleonic Era Guards were expected to from square in 2 minutes.
In the METAVOLI (about face) command you turn on your own vertical axis.
Each trooper knows his place in the formation. It takes 48 hours to drill men to that as I know from personal experience.
Facing threat form you rear is usually easier than the flank
Younger hoplites were usually posted front rank with more seasoned hoplites behind them so that the phalanx would have lesss chances to desintegrate from behind. Usually file leader and OYRAGOS (literally tail leader) would be equally well armed.
So in open order in the METAVOLI (about face) command the enemy would face an equly well armed rank.
As I said before if they had locked shields and the enemy was less than 4 minutes away they were doomed (first Mantineia 418 B.C.)
Now pikes. That can be real tough.
Usually pikes are more difficult to manuver than spears.
If the pike men are not engaged and the pikes are not leveled (vertical) they can execute METAVOLI (about face) in the same time as spearmen
If they are engaged only ARGYRASPIDES class pikemen would be expected to turn only the rear ranks and hope that help would come soon.
Unilike XVI century units hellenistic pike blocks were between 10 to 16 ranks deep
The real bugger is to wheel to the flank.
If the pike block has to attack it can wheel and dress its ranks and hit an enemy that is also engaged.
If the pike block is attacked from the flank...well remember KYNOS KEFALAI. Even if the pikemen try to form "hedgehog square" the corners cannot be sufficiently covered.
That is why Philip and Alexander covered the flanks with cavalry or light troops. All hellenistic battles were lost when the flank was exposed usually by impetuous cavaly who got carried away.(Magnisia 190 B.C.)
The basic source for counter march is Polyvios but most of the pikemen of his time were badly trained and with bad leadership.
I tried to answer too much on a single post. Ask me if you have questions.
Kind regards
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Sean Manning - 11-08-2006
IIRC Aelian's tactical manual talks a lot about methods of countermarching during battle, but less about wheeling. Tuning a whole battle line isn't generally practical, and there would be light spearmen, cavalry, and missile troops on the flanks of any Hellenistic army who could perform any fancy manoeuvers needed. The first few and last rank of a pike phalanx contained the noncom-types (who may have had the best gear), so it was important to face the enemy with your designated front rankers. Classical spear phalanxes probably handled things more informally and rarely did much manoeuvering once in line.
Edit: Aelian describes a company of 256 men "turning like the body of a single man either 'spearward' or 'shieldward' in such a way that the whole unit pivots on the first file leader" thus keeping each man in the same position in rank and file.
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Aryaman2 - 11-08-2006
Quote:a subunit? A unit broken off from the phalanx or another unit from the same army (for example peltasts)? Not sure what you mean. My question stems from a discussion that phalanxes had a difficult time turning themselves to face oncoming threats, even when unengaged.
My question is "If the phalanx needed to could it turn quickly enough to face an oncoming enemy that was approaching it's flank/rear? Or would it be hopelessly disordered or incapable of reforming (not wheeling) to meet the threat head on?"
Matt Webster
Usually it would be some of the flanking units, cavalry or skirmishers, but I don´t think there would be any problem for a syntagma (256 men) or even a smaller subunit to be detached to cover a flank, I don´t recall that in ancient battles, but it was standard practice in early modern battles in which pikemen formations were involved
Re: Wheeling the phalanx - Aryaman2 - 11-08-2006
Stefanos
I don´t know exactly what you mean by "Unilike XVI century units hellenistic pike blocks were between 10 to 16 ranks deep" pike blocks were arranged in a variation of formations according to requirements, from 50 deep to just 6 deep.
I think it is interesting the note about vulnerable corners, in Napoleonic times cavalry was instructed to attack the corners of infantry squares.
I have a question, would the phalanx open ranks by running back alternate files? that would be the logical step if you about face by countermarching, but if you say the phalanx didn´t countermarch then it could use another system.