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+--- Thread: Helmet: chin strap and padding (/showthread.php?tid=7830)
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Helmet: chin strap and padding - geala - 12-21-2006
Hello,
as you can see I'm quite new at the forum.
I have a growing interest for the ancient Greeks and I'm working at the peculiar plan to represent a Greek archer of about 400 BC. But I don't know much about the time, so ... I have a few questions. I did not find the exact answer for my questions by searching the forum. If I failed please give me a hint to the right threads.
First:
The only piece of armour I am considering would be a helmet. I'm thinking of a Chalkidian or pilos helmet.
What about the padding of these helmets? I read Stefanos answers from 2005 about paddings for the Corinthian helmet. Was it the same for Chalkidian and pilos? I think so. So no internal padding was used but a seperate arming cap? I don't think that a adjustable leather insert was used (although that would be fine). Can someone tell me about a reconstruction?
And what about chin straps? I couldn't imagine to fight with a pilos helmet without chin straps. Late medieval helmets had chin straps in addition to padding without exemption, even deep barbutas, but I have not seen a single example of the feature on Greek helmets yet. I think I simply missed the sources (I hope so). If there are no sources of straps which I can't imagine: was this artistic convention or were straps not necessary (because of what?)?
Does anybody have an opinion of the Chalkidian helmet presented on armae.com (should be the model from deepeeka)? Is it acceptable? Is a padding included? (could ask Armae, but if anybody knows it...). Helmets made of bronze seem not to exist, the bronze pilos helmet on manningimperial.com has disappeared, too.
I hope you can help me.
(by the way: I like this forum a lot and am very happy that I have found it)
wkr
Wolfgang Zeiler
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 12-21-2006
Well most modern helmets are one size fits all. That makes padding a difficult issue. Though corinthian semmed in ancient times to have a special pad as we see from pottery the chalkidic probably used the same or a variation base on the "phrygic" cup that pictorial vidence shows it to have uncovered ears.
Some pottery shows separete padding in upturned cheek pieces.
Probaly metalpilos originated from the felt item. The real reason for its introduction was cost especially after the constant civil wars ruined economy
Kind regards
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - Matthew Amt - 12-21-2006
Any type of helmet would have some sort of padding, whether it's a built-in lining or just the wearer's hair. Looks like the Greeks used a headband or cap most often, though the fit of a modern repro helmet may require some glued-in padding.
I think most original helmets have a pair of holes for a chinstrap. Most likely just a thong or cord, tied under the chin. Should work.
Armae's helmets are mostly from Deepeeka. The Chalcidian is pretty good, though I don't remember if it has problems of accuracy, proportions, or what. And it's presumably brass, rather than bronze, though that may be as close as we can get without having the helmet custom-made. Unfortunately, Deepeeka doesn't make a pilos helmet, though we should bug them to do so! It ought to be easy for them.
Welcome, by the way! Khaire,
Matthew
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 12-21-2006
For historical accuracy the Greek metalworkers used various additives to to their copper depending on location and availability.
So in my opinion both brass and bronze go.
Kind regards
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - geala - 12-25-2006
Thank you.
The tip with the simple holes in the helmets is interesting. I think there must have been some straps in use at least for the not so deep helmets.
Is there really no ancient Greek picture showing chin straps?
wkr
Wolfgang Zeiler
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 12-25-2006
Wofgang, there is only indication in statues and most pottery paint is "scratched off" at critical points leaving a lot to be guessed.
Thats all as chinstraps go for the moment.
Arming caps are a certainty but we do not know how widely used they were.
Marry X-mass
P.S. I discovered some less known Museums in Central Greece.
If I find anything there I´ll post pics.
Kind regards
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - geala - 12-26-2006
Hello Stefanos,
you mean straps would have been painted onto sculptures like other certain details and would be lost therefore? That makes great sense. I don't know why I didn't come up with this myself. :lol:
Would be great if you could find something nevertheless.
Merry xmas and a happy new year to everyone.
Wolfgang Zeiler
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 12-26-2006
Examle of arming cup from the "Agora Museum" in Athens.
(courtesy of my friend Spyros)
http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e238/ ... 0302-1.jpg
Kind regards
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 01-06-2007
Arming cap for Corinthian helemet.
National Museum Athens
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - MeinPanzer - 01-06-2007
Quote:Thank you.
The tip with the simple holes in the helmets is interesting. I think there must have been some straps in use at least for the not so deep helmets.
Is there really no ancient Greek picture showing chin straps?
wkr
Wolfgang Zeiler
Two, that I know of. One is a bust of Pyrrhus with a fairly peculiar chinstrap arrangement:
[url:r3ztzh23]http://www.utexas.edu/courses/romanciv/romancivimages3/pyrrhus.jpg[/url]
And another is a helmeted head from Old Nisa with a chinstrap arrangement more as we would expect it to be.
[url:r3ztzh23]http://www.unesco.kz/heritagenet/tm/turkm_muz/mus11.jpg[/url]
(this is the only picture I could find online; I have a much better one that I can post later)
Of course, these are both Hellenistic.
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - MeinPanzer - 01-06-2007
Quote:Arming cap for Corinthian helemet.
National Museum Athens
How do you know that these are arming caps and not just regular caps?
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - Peter Raftos - 01-07-2007
This archaic dedication helmet fragment from Olympia seems to have holes for stiching a lining and strap hole
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - hoplite14gr - 01-07-2007
There is evidence that some ancient helmets had lining.
Not all of them though as there was no uniformity.
So far the substance of the lining has not been established.
The term arming cap is relatively new:
http://home.messiah.edu/~gdaub/armor/glossary.htm
http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/glos ... sarya.html
http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/glossary.shtml
Ancient Greeks used the term pilos for cap. Originally was a felt cap.
Pilima = felt.
It could double as a helmet comforter if the helmet was not lined.
People of time had their armor made to size.
I have first hand experience of slight burns from "unlined" tight fitting "Corinthian" in the hot Greek summer.
If the helmet was unlined it would be more than uncomfortable with 35 to 40 centigrade.
Kind regards
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - MeinPanzer - 01-08-2007
Quote:There is evidence that some ancient helmets had lining.
Not all of them though as there was no uniformity.
So far the substance of the lining has not been established.
The term arming cap is relatively new:
http://home.messiah.edu/~gdaub/armor/glossary.htm
http://www.renaissancemagazine.com/glos ... sarya.html
http://www.armourarchive.org/essays/glossary.shtml
Ancient Greeks used the term pilos for cap. Originally was a felt cap.
Pilima = felt.
It could double as a helmet comforter if the helmet was not lined.
People of time had their armor made to size.
I have first hand experience of slight burns from "unlined" tight fitting "Corinthian" in the hot Greek summer.
If the helmet was unlined it would be more than uncomfortable with 35 to 40 centigrade.
Kind regards
Those examples you posted above of pottery paintings of men wearing caps, how do you know they are arming caps?
Re: Helmet: chin strap and padding - Anonymous - 01-08-2007
Quote:This archaic dedication helmet fragment from Olympia seems to have holes for stitching a lining and strap hole
That's a nice, clear example, Peter, thanks. The holes for a lining are not found on later helmets, so it appears that military fashion moved to the arming cap.
Ruben's question about whether the pictures show arming caps or ordinary headgear is a fair one; at least one of the pictures shows the type of cap I've been accustomed to associate with Scythians. On the other hand, the wearer also clearly bears an aspis, which suggests he is a helmet-wearing Hoplite. I have often found it useful to wear a hood or coif under my helmets, so this type of cap seems to me very good for using as an arming cap, if you could get the helmet on over it, without it shifting. I've found that a woollen hat, as well as being inauthentic, just disappears into the crown of the helmet, leaving my brow exposed to chafing.