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+--- Thread: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? (/showthread.php?tid=8055)
Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - marcii ulpi messala - 01-14-2007
Helmet of the archaeological national museum (Madrid). Roman helmet or Carthaginian?
![[Image: CASCOman2.jpg]](http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p273/6166/CASCOman2.jpg)
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - john m roberts - 01-14-2007
Generic Hellenistic. That sort of helmet is found all over the Mediterranean from the Hellenistic era. I don't know if it ever saw Roman use, but undoubtedly it was used widely in Carthage's mercenary armies. That doesn't make it carthaginian, though.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - L C Cinna - 01-14-2007
it's a hellenistic helmet like Mr Roberts already said. It's attic style.
the catalogue of the Antikenmuseum Basel and Stiftung Ludwig, 1989, by Herrman Pflug has pictures of 3 such helmets, one found in Albania, one on Melos and one from Pergamon.
As Mr.Roberts already said those types of helmets were in widespread use. Could be from a carthaginian mercenary, a Roman, a Roman allied contingent or someone else. Do you have any dating for this helmet or the context where it was found?
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - lup_alb - 01-14-2007
That helmet look thracian to me.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Tarbicus - 01-14-2007
Quote:That helmet look thracian to me.Which was worn by Liby-Phoenicians fighting for Carthage I think.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - L C Cinna - 01-14-2007
sorry but it's definately Attic style. This style is a development of the phrygian cap design but it's attic. still the different types of hellenistic helmets were produced and used all over the med.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - MeinPanzer - 01-14-2007
Quote:Helmet of the archaeological national museum (Madrid). Roman helmet or Carthaginian?
This type of helmet has no contemporaries in archaeological sources representing Roman or native Spanish soldiers. I would say it is definitely Carthaginian.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - drsrob - 01-14-2007
Quote:sorry but it's definately Attic style. This style is a development of the phrygian cap design but it's attic. still the different types of hellenistic helmets were produced and used all over the med.I hate to disagree, but the books I have agree that it is defenitely a Thracian helmet.
The flared out lower edge and raised top are typical for the Thracian and Phrygian style. The Attic helmet has a rounded, relatively close fitting crown with visible hinges.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - L C Cinna - 01-14-2007
I hate to disagree as well. I do see boeotian and thracian features in this helmet. I didn't really find much on this specific helmet except for the 3 helmets at the museum in Berlin(depicted in the book I mentioned before) which look practically the same and are labeled as "late hellenistic attic", all dated late 3rd and 2nd century BCE.
All 3 have different crestholders. The one from Melos does have the same one as this one shown here. all 4 have the hinged cheekpieces and the typically attic decoration.
Note that I'm not sure as I see the features of other types as well. We just have to be carefull. Most "typical" categorizations for greek helmets I found are showing earlier models where the difference is more clear. This one is 2nd century BCE I guess. Still hard to say who wore it. There are Roman republican coins depicting similar helmets worn by Roma.
coin1
coin2
coin3
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Tarbicus - 01-14-2007
It doesn't look like any of the ones here:
[url:23ibx3z0]http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/italic_military/general_italic/armor/helmets/newattic.html[/url]
It looks more like this, though, posted in Show Your Greek Impression:
[url:23ibx3z0]http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/6525/helm1yz0.jpg[/url]
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - L C Cinna - 01-14-2007
yes you are right. the italic helmets in your first link are the ones Roma wears on the coins I posted. my mistake.sorry all.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Peroni - 01-14-2007
The same brow decoration can be seen on a helmet that Robinson categorised as an 'Imperial Italic A' said to have been found at Herculaneum, now in the Naples Museum.
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Tarbicus - 01-15-2007
It is uncannily similar, but the main difference is the lack of a crest and the bowl extending at the front to form a peak.
I'm having thoughts, but couldn't possibly express them here :wink:
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Peroni - 01-15-2007
Jim wrote..
Quote:I'm having thoughts, but couldn't possibly express them hereYou're thinking it's a fireman's helmet aren't you??? Vigiles??? :wink: :wink: :wink:
helmets like these can also be seen on the 'Ahenobarbus' relief..
http://www.ribekatedralskole.dk/classic ... ldater.jpg
Re: Helmet Roman or Carthaginian? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 01-15-2007
Perhaps this is the missing Tribune helmet link everyone searches for?
Looks plausible to me, very interesting form I havn't seen untill now!