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+--- Thread: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? (/showthread.php?tid=8267)
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Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Primvs Pavlvs - 02-01-2007
Is there any evidence for totally organic scabbards for gladi? As in no metal fittings? Possibly constructed totally from leather, and or wood?
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Marcus Mummius - 02-01-2007
Quote:Is there any evidence for totally organic scabbards for gladi? As in no metal fittings? Possibly constructed totally from leather, and or wood?
A member of my group has a scabbard like this. As far as I know there is no evidence for it...
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Virilis - 02-01-2007
So Paul, you were after all forced to sell all the brass parts of your scabbard! Authentic? Sorry, no way :twisted: !
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Magnus - 02-01-2007
That'd be hard to find paul, since wouldn't most of it just rot away? lol
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Primvs Pavlvs - 02-01-2007
Quote:That'd be hard to find paul, since wouldn't most of it just rot away? lol
:wink: Look at all the leather, wood and other organic materials from Vindolanda, Vindonissa, Egypt......Should I go on? :lol:
Al organic scabbards - Celer - 02-01-2007
Salve,
Not sure about C1st scabbards, but 3rd and 4th ... definately. When you consider that both the chape and the slide were often made out of bone or ivory, and these are the parts that are usually metal. As a case in point, just consider the all-ivory scabbard and hilt on the C3rd long-sword from Kisfane (?) in Syria - just one metal component, a gold rivet through the chape.
Crispus has a very convincing theory about organic scabbards for military daggers.
Vale,
Celer.
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Martin Moser - 02-01-2007
The only thing I know of that goes in this direction are two or three knife sheaths, all of simple design and made rather crudely :-( (
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Magnus - 02-01-2007
Maybe try and find 2nd century scabbards and see if there was any transitional trends for less metalwork on the scabbards?
Re: Al organic scabbards - Conal - 02-02-2007
Quote:Salve,
As a case in point, just consider the all-ivory scabbard and hilt on the C3rd long-sword from Kisfane (?) in Syria - just one metal component, a gold rivet through the chape.
Vale,
Celer.
Are there any illustrations or pictures of this available ?
Khisfine sword - Celer - 02-02-2007
Salve Conal,
There is a line drawing of the Khisfane sword in B&C, pp 154. They also mention later (p.160) that a sword at Dura Europas had an organic scabbard, with possibly an organic slide and chape.
Scimming through the National Museum of Wales catalogue, there are a number of organic scabbard fittings including two bone disc-chapes, and two bone slides. I also know of two bone/ivory box-chapes in the BM in London (miscatalogued as C1st).
As for the pugio scabbards, I can't help you there but I know a man who can .......
[size=150:1znczfyf]CRISPUS, WHERE ARE YOU![/size]
D D Vale,
Celer.
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Conal - 02-02-2007
Thanks mate I have had a look in B&C .... its not shown in great detail though so I will need to keep on looking
There are a number of organic chapes etc in the Nydam/Vimose et al which might indicate earlier trends.
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Crispvs - 02-02-2007
HERE I AM FRATER CELER - DON'T PANIC MY BROTHER 8) lol:
My idea about type 'B' pugio sheaths which lacked front plates is based on the fact that four hinged type'B' suspension rings were found together in the Walbrook, apparently in the absence of any other metal fittings. As the type 'B' sheath is essentially a wooden sheath with metal hinges and suspension rings and a decorative metal front plate which has little or no role in the overall construction of the sheath, it seams feasable to think that the suspension rings (which were misidentified as buckles, hence me finding them in Grew and Griffith's article on belt plates) may have been the only inorganic parts of an otherwise disintegrated sheath. I see no reason why a type'B' sheath could not be constructed without the front plate and yet still be perfectly serviceable. My reconstruction of the Walbrook evidence therefore would probably be a leather covered wooden type 'B' sheath with hinged suspension rings and no front plate.
It should be noted however that this theory is not without its pitfalls. It could be of course, that other metal components were originally present but had corroded away - where, for example is the terminal rivet?
Similarly, it may be that the suspension rings have been listed out of context and that other parts have survived in fragmentary form, their identification being hampered by the misidentification of the suspension rings.
Until I have the report of their discovery in my hands or better evidence turns up my theory remains exactly that - a theory. However, as has been said before, you cannot knock a theory down until someone has at least put it up in the first place. 8) :? 8)
Crispvs
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Peroni - 02-03-2007
Crispvs wrote:concerning the Walbrook find..
Quote:it seams feasable to think that the suspension rings (which were misidentified as buckles, hence me finding them in Grew and Griffith's article on belt plates)
Ave Crispvs!
Actually The G & G article states the following;
"dagger scabbard fastener, No.157"
So the description given was correct, but it was included with the bukles along with two dagger frogs 163 & 165.
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Magnus - 02-03-2007
Hey Crispus, maybe they used a decorative piece of leather on the front of the scabbard in place of the metal one sometimes?
Re: Gladi with all Organic Scabbards? - Crispvs - 02-05-2007
Always possible Magnus.
Crispvs