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30s AD Reenacting - jbd_29349 - 03-01-2007
At the time of the cruxifiction of Christ, what was the typical kit of a Roman soldier.
Hamata/Segmentata (combination of both Hamata being dominate?)
Gladius: Pompeii/Mainz
Helmet: Coolus/Gallic/Italic
Pugio?
Belt: Single/Double
Sheild: Republican/Augustian/Imperial
Spear/Pilum
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Matthew Amt - 03-01-2007
Ave!
The short answer is, All of the above! It's a great transition era, with lots of choices. The Pompeii gladius is probably pretty new, so the Mainz would be more common. Likewise, I'd lean towards more Coolus helmets and a few Gallics and Montefortinos, and fewer Italics. No spears for legionaries, generally, but yes to a pugio (frame or shell scabbard).
Now, if you're thinking of soldiers actually AT the Crucifixion, those were auxiliaries, not legionaries. No way to tell if they bothered with all the gear for that duty--they may have skipped the armor and/or shields, for instance. But there weren't any legionary units stationed in Judea at that time.
That help? Vale,
Matthew
and they used spears - Caius Fabius - 03-01-2007
...and the Christyian account says the auxilaries used SPEARS, not pila. Otherwise how would Thomas put his hand in the wound left by the spear? Maybe his finger in the pila wound, but.... :?
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 03-02-2007
Then again, how many people, even nowadays, call a pilum a spear. If I'm speaking to a layman I"m more than likely to call it a spear. When you say pilum they say "huh?" Heck,even a pointy stick is called a spear.
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Cornelius Quintus - 03-02-2007
Ave Andy,
the ancient people were familiar with the matching terms. When apostle Paul wrote about a symbolic spiritual ‘armour of god’, he had a Roman soldier in mind as a pattern.
So the Latin version (Vulgata) of Ephesians 6 features: lorica, galea, scutum, gladius…
Most translations simplifiy that by using general terms like 'sword'.
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Caballo - 03-02-2007
So we have a soldier wearing:-
-calcei
-lorica
-scutum (against the "darts of the wicked")
-galea (helmet)
-gladius
-and some form of covering on the loins (lumbos vestros in veritate -loins clad in truth))- pteruges? feminalia?
Sounds believable to me!
Latin version below:-
11 induite vos arma Dei ut possitis stare adversus insidias diaboli
12 quia non est nobis conluctatio adversus carnem et sanguinem sed adversus principes et potestates adversus mundi rectores tenebrarum harum contra spiritalia nequitiae in caelestibus
13 propterea accipite armaturam Dei ut possitis resistere in die malo et omnibus perfectis stare
14 state ergo succincti lumbos vestros in veritate et induti loricam iustitiae 15 et calciati pedes in praeparatione evangelii pacis
16 in omnibus sumentes scutum fidei in quo possitis omnia tela nequissimi ignea extinguere
17 et galeam salutis adsumite et gladium Spiritus quod est verbum Dei
18 per omnem orationem et obsecrationem orantes omni tempore in Spiritu et in ipso vigilantes in omni instantia et obsecratione pro omnibus sanctis
19 et pro me ut detur mihi sermo in apertione oris mei cum fiducia notum facere mysterium evangelii
20 pro quo legatione fungor in catena ita ut in ipso audeam prout oportet me loqui
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 03-02-2007
Quote:Ave Andy,
the ancient people were familiar with the matching terms.
Most translations simplifiy that by using general terms like 'sword'.
:oops: Sorry I got into this one. Obviously over my head. I thought we were discussing the soldier's equipment.
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Caballo - 03-02-2007
A second (and very obvious :oops: ) thought- the order is exactly the order which you would put on the equipment-
-tunic/ subarmalis/ pteruges/ feminalia (lumbos vestros )
-lorica
-calcei
-scutum
-helmet
-gladius (assume on balteus)
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Peroni - 03-02-2007
Paul wrote...
Quote:So we have a soldier wearing:-
-calcei
I'd stay clear of calcei as a military boot for this period. We don't start seeing the enclosed boot until late first century. (Vindolanda/Mainz).
Stick with caligae.
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 03-02-2007
Quote:Ave Andy,
When apostle Paul wrote about a symbolic spiritual ‘armour of god’, he had a Roman soldier in mind as a pattern.
So the Latin version (Vulgata) of Ephesians 6 features: lorica, galea, scutum, gladius…
Most translations simplifiy that by using general terms like 'sword'.
The author of Ephesians wrote in Greek, and the word in Greek is a general for a sword - please correct me if I am wrong. The latin terms - a choice of a translator. The protoimage could be that of any soldier, wearing a breast-plate, belt, helmet, sword and shield - the Romans were not the only ones having the set.
Also - the loins are girded with a belt, not femenalia...
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Caballo - 03-02-2007
Re calcei- agreed, not at the crucifixion (? c AD 33?).
Mind you , according to a quick Google search, the letter to the Ephesians is dated at either 63 AD (if Paul wrote it) or around 90 AD (if someone else wrote it). Which is fairly close to the Vindolanda/ Mainz evidence, IIRC?
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 03-02-2007
Quote:A second (and very obvious :oops: ) thought- the order is exactly the order which you would put on the equipment-
-tunic/ subarmalis/ pteruges/ feminalia (lumbos vestros )
-lorica
-calcei
-scutum
-helmet
-gladius (assume on balteus)
As I pointed out, the belt comes on first. Also, it would be challenging to put on a helmet and a sword, having a shield in your hand....I would take the shield last.
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Cornelius Quintus - 03-02-2007
Ave Adrian,
ah- already posted above (I'm slow today...) - apostle Paul wrote that lines decades after crucifixion, and the NT was written in Greek and translated into Latin.
So my basic thought for this example was not whether that's the equipment used in Judea in 30 AD, but how first century people used exact terms of their time, where modern / later translations often include blurry and general terms (due to 2.000 years of weapon and armour evolution).
It's comparable to the south american rain forests. When we say 'green' we often can't imagine that other people will understand a hundred words for different shades of green...
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - Caballo - 03-02-2007
Thanks- very interesting- so would someone know what were the original words used in Greek?
Cheers
Re: 30s AD Reenacting - jbd_29349 - 03-02-2007
If you were going to wear the double belt would it have the apron on it or not?