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+--- Thread: making an aspis (/showthread.php?tid=8966)
Re: making an aspis - Giannis K. Hoplite - 12-28-2011
A point that i forgot to make, i also believe that the bronze bands that we see on either side of the porpax had the purpose of pinning the planks together, adding to the strenght of the shield. Further support was some times added by an inner circular ring that was running below the rim.
Re: making an aspis - Marcus Ginintonicus - 12-28-2011
That was very interesting, and very helpful as well. Getting into this Classical Greek world is going to be fun!
Ευχαριστώ!
Re: making an aspis - barcid - 12-28-2011
Quote:After doing a lot of reading I'm seriously considering a Manning aspis. Yes, I could make one myself - but on the first try? How many would I mess up before I've exceeded the savings in employing myself? My time is not without value and I am willing to pay for expertise.worth the investment i have a 2nd. Aspis on order with Craig :-)
But I wonder: how tough are they, really? Where I live we think of pine as a fairly soft wood, pretty for paneling but useless for anything that might take damage. Poplar I don't know very well.
If I shell out the valuta for a Manning aspis, I'd like to know that they're not wallhangers - they're survivable war gear as tough as the originals.
Another question, and this will surely display the depth of my ignorance: all of the DIY methods for making an aspis that I have seen depend on glue. I've also seen opined that there really wasn't a glue that would stand up to five days of rain before the 18th century. So, were the originals glued up or carved from a single trunk, or...what?
Thanks for the help.
Re: making an aspis - hoplite14gr - 12-28-2011
Reconstructed hoplite shield.
The straight dope. (after Biscupin experience)
1. It has nothing to do with manufacturer or wood type!
2. It has to do the sandbelted layerd wooden rings construction.
3. All three wooden shields from thre different manufacturers were busted in 48 hours constant harsh treatment - real harsh treatment.
No opinion on "Chigi type" reconstructed shiled because we expect to have one the coming summer.
If you put a reconstructed "wooden rings" hoplite shields to "Vyborg style" hasrsh treatment I give them only 24 hours survivalability.
The shields currenrly in market are good for demostration and hoplite race.
Kind regards.
Re: making an aspis - Marcus Ginintonicus - 12-28-2011
Quote:Reconstructed hoplite shield.Honestly? Nothing to do with manufacturer or wood type? So if I use balsa and do it myself that's as good as what I'll get from Manning Imperial, as long as I use the sandbelted layered wooden rings contruction? I don't see how that could be.
The straight dope. (after Biscupin experience)
1. It has nothing to do with manufacturer or wood type!
2. It has to do the sandbelted layerd wooden rings construction.
3. All three wooden shields from thre different manufacturers were busted in 48 hours constant harsh treatment - real harsh treatment...
Re: making an aspis - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-28-2011
Hello all!
Ferox you old fox, how the devil are you? 8-)
This is quite an interesting thread but your comments on the depth of the Manning
Aspice has me a little concerned, as I understood the curvature of the inside of the shield was fairly crucial for it to sit/rest on the shoulder? Correct me if I'm wrong, only going by what I read in books on this.!
Just I am considering a Manning aspice, but don't want to spend a packet on something that is going to be s.liding off al the time! :|
Re: making an aspis - hoplite14gr - 12-29-2011
1. I have deep respect for Craig and his work.
2. I did not said anything ill about the manufacturers.
(We used an Australian, an Indian and a Greek reconmstructin)
3. I said that the accepted reconstruction method in the market
(that seemed to OK to us before the Biskupin experience)didn't make it.
Yes a well made shiled will resist destruction better than a poorlu made one.
The currently made hoplion shields will be fine for hoplite race or othismos demonstration but if you re-enact early Archaic dueling hoplites with heavy blows
the "rings stracture" will not hold its own.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/6193585560/in/set-72157627775954044/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/koryvantes/6195370270/in/set-72157627775954044/
The "horsetail emblem" is Greek-made one from oak.
The photos are given just as an example of what our shields went through
Kind regards
Re: making an aspis - Giannis K. Hoplite - 12-29-2011
I think it is worth mentionning here the experiment of Christian Cameron with a hypothetical reconstruction of an early archaic shield, like those in the Chigi vase.
In fact it was not purely hypothetical, since Chris based his reconstruction on surviving speciments of timber finds, but the end result was a trully resistant shield.
It was not constructed like the later vatican shield at all, he used thin ash planks which he bent in shape in three layers, creating an effect on the inside like the Chigi vase. The planks were sitting under tention within a solid rim and covered on the outside with hide.
Christian did some tests with his shield which weighs no more than 7 kilos. He shot it with a composite bow of -i think- 70lb (Christian correct me if i'm wrong) and the arrow failed to penetrate. The reason was that the planks are tentioned and not only they absorbed the power, but they actually turned the arrow back!
Craig saw that shield at Marathon and together with Christian they are about to make more experiments with Christian making the wooden core and Craig making full bronze covers.
This shield however is a 7th and early 6th century shield and after the early archaic period we no longer see the intricate pattern on the inside of the shields in artwork. Other surviving speciments including the Vatican shield, that date to the 5th and 4th centuries indicated that the later shields were made with paraller planks like Craig's shields.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: making an aspis - KrimzonKnight - 12-30-2011
i thought that no actual specimen of a wooden aspis core had been found? the shield at the vatican is just the bronze covering, is it not? then how can we be sure of the shields were made at all? Is it possible that the shields from later times could have been built in the same manner as those from the chigi vase, only that the interior was completely covered?
Re: making an aspis - Giannis K. Hoplite - 12-30-2011
Hi Eric.
No, the vatican shield has about 30-40% of the wood surviving, and part of if also covered by leather on the inside. The bronze is almost 100% intact, with just a little hole about 5x5 cm. This is how we know of the different thickness of the wooden core on different parts of the shield.
I have seen it up close and i have posted many photos here in RAT in a separate thread. Craig of MI has also seen the shield up close in his recent trip to Europe this October.
But the Vatican shield is not the only one with parts of the wood surviving. There is a number of shields, and some of them have been posted here on RAT. Not all are the same as the vaticam and on of them seems to have been constructed with thin strips of wood perhaps laminated. I have not seen it though.
Finally, there are a number of other finds from Macedonia where the linen and stucco/gesso cover of the shield has survived, as well some small pieces of wood, and even bronze links that used to hold the planks together. The vatican shield doesn't have such links, nor wooden nails holding the planks together,but this might be explained by the fact that it had a full bronze cover, whereas the Macedonian shields didn't,and thus need additional stuctural strenght!
So we have indeed more than just representations and bronze covers in our disposal if we want to reconstruct a shield, but all the evidence points to different construction tecniques at different periods.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: making an aspis - richard robinson - 12-31-2011
Interesting thread
i have recently made two cores using the concentric ring method: One quite deep and one with a more solid shoulder and not so deep and although they are not completed I rediscovered something that i did not have to think about when I made my first about 16 years ago.
I made two because I had a whole heap of rings that needed using and it seemed wasteful not to do two at once.
The metal rim on an aspis serves very well to tension and control the shrinking of rawhide on the aspis face,one day i will be able to post how that differentiates with those with linnen faces.(16 years ago I had a precut metal rim and recently I had/ have not yet constructed one)
regards
Richard
Re: making an aspis - KrimzonKnight - 12-31-2011
ohh okey, well im not going to argue with someone whom i know to be vastly more knowledgeable than me on the subject
. thank you Giannis
Re: making an aspis - john dann - 01-03-2012
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Aspis experiments (1st prototype)
The Aspis is an icon of ancient Greek armor & I have noted with interest over the years in RAT the fine discussion &physical attempts at their reconstruction. I think special thanks should go to Mathew Amt for his development of the ring design. Despite the core not being authentic, his design is the least expensive & most expedient way to make an Aspis that is absolutely perfect for reenactment purposes. It is also probably the best way to experiment with different bowl configurations (deep or shallow), of which there is still energetic debate. It is the method I used for my 1st Aspis & it was a rewarding experience.
My experiments since have been devoted to understanding how the actual core may have been made .To this end, like so many others, my points of reference have been primarily the Chigi vase, the Vatican Museum Etruscan Shield and the Roman style shield from the Fayum in Egypt. On these pages a number of interesting & valuable experiments have been presented and even though the method I am presenting here has been mentioned a few times I have as yet to see an actual attempt quite the way I am using. So here goes- this is my contribution to a way in which to construct a perhaps near to authentic Greek Aspis core. I prefer the esthetics of the shallow bowl design, personal evaluation of the archaeological evidence & perhaps a weight savings. The construction is based on 4 overlapping layers of tightly placed slats (the 1st was with Carolina southern pine, the 2nd with poplar as will be the 3rd). Imagine the way in which the British ensign is 2 overlaid crosses. Yellow carpenter’s glue (stand in for hide glue) holds it all together & the rim is separately made of 4 layers of 6 to 7 curved pieces that overlap each other , this then was press fit & pinned onto the bowl. All together there are over 100 pieces of wood that are all unique in shape. Note the 1st shield was made without the aid of any power tools. I decided to do it this way in order to put myself into the work mode of an ancient craftsman but as a result, I caused some damage to my rotator cuff, so now power tools are allowed. The 1st shield weighs 8 kilos & is robust; the 2nd is of poplar which has less specific gravity, weighs less (about 7 kilos) and is a bit more springy. Also all slats are 5mm thick. Because I think there is still too much weight, I’m planning on a new one which should have the same strength, but be constructed of less material – still able to do its intended job. As a result of testing, I have concluded that the 3rd test aspis will be ¼ less thick (either fewer or thinner slates).
In order to be able to perform some objective tests with a quantitative element I have built a gravity impact or – this allows me to evaluate damage done to small test sections and calculate the Kinetic Energy (KE) at the point of impact & referenced this to published energy values for various weapons from antiquity.
The aspis design I am presenting meets the following criteria:
1) Materials & construction are not beyond those available to the craftsmen of the era.
2) Protection against projectile & blunt force can be demonstrated.
3) Because the bowl & rim are separate components, post battle repairs can be attempted.
4) The aspis has enough mass to be used offensively.
5) If I had to protect my sorry hide in battle of the era, this would be my design of choice.
Dimensions: OD =88cm, ID=77cm &depth=12cm. Face of bowl = 2cm & tapering from the shoulder to the edge to 12mm.
The down side is that this method is very time consuming.
I hope the attached pics are of help to clarify the above. Please understand that I am not member of any reenactment group, and look forward to having some online feedback. My immediate interests are mostly academic so my projects proceed at a slow pace & often remain unfinished.
Also if there is interest for more information on my aspis design or the gravity impactor I can follow up.
John Dann
Re: making an aspis - M. Demetrius - 01-03-2012
Do you steam the wood strips?
Re: making an aspis - Marcus Ginintonicus - 01-03-2012
And did you laminate them over a form? And if so, what was the form?