Forging a pugio blade

[Magnus]

Great job Kelsey. How hot of a torch do you need for brazing brass?

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Great job Kelsey. How hot of a torch do you need for brazing brass?

My setup was with propane and oxygen instead of acetyline and oxygen and that was more than sufficient (propane has a lower burning temp). I just set it on a neutral flame and tried to keep moving as soon as the brazing wire 'flows'. I think MAPP gas is not hot enough, although I've never tried it with a proper brazing tip. Also, do grab some welding goggles

--Kelsey

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Regarding the wire inlay of the original piece, I myself have no doubt Luc De Vos and Erik Koenig's methods are as spot on as can be for authenticity.

In studying the larger, more detailed photographs of the originals, I have noticed many instances where the chisel marks are still present. Here is an example:
[attachment=1:wwthme7q]<!-- ia1 chiseling.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:wwthme7q]

Yet I am also confident that they mixed this with engraving techniques, by which I mean creating of channels with an implement held at an angle (the graver) to the metal and tapped along (as opposed to vertical chiseling). I believe it was Luc de Vos who in another thread mentioned the 'onglette' as the the modern term for such a tool, although there are other shapes available as well. If nothing else, I think this would have been the process for opening the larger areas (the wide bands, the brass dial segments, the brass leaves in the bottom section).

Another useful lesson I gained in doing the inlay of the larger strips is that you always seem to find the *longer* strips overlapping the *shorter* ones. This is very smart since the longer pieces have more surrounding steel to hold them in place, and they in turn 'anchor' the shorter pieces in place. Also, no 'loose ends' are left exposed. Case in point is shown below:
[attachment=0:wwthme7q]<!-- ia0 overlap.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:wwthme7q]
...this is at least how they appear to me, I don't know if the pictures are 100% clear on this.

Incidentally, I did the light-weight lines with 22g brass wire and the larger strips with 16g, which i annealed, flattened, and re-annealed. Personally, I think I was very close with the wire inlay but seem to have hit a wall on the undercutting. Getting one, two, or even a full section done was no problem. When I got to doing multiple sections the wires started to come undone from the stress on the piece. Any solutions, as usual, are appreciated

--Kelsey

[Crispvs]

Kelsey,

Firstly, to clear any air which may have become fogged unintentionally, I think that the work you have been doing is fantastic and I am in no way intending to criticise the way you have chosen to tackle the always difficult issue of how to make the decoration of pugio sheaths look realistic without spending years developing the technical expertise of a master craftsman. I may seem like the proverbial 'stitch counter' to many, but as one of the authenticity officers of the RMRS my over-riding concern is generally to make sure that everything looks right, whether or not the method used to achieve the effect was what the ancients used or what we can achieve ourselves using modern techniques. I think your use of brazing and epoxy resin is an excellent solution to a problem many of us have encountered.

Regarding punching versus engraving, I too think both techniques would have been used. We can be fairly sure that punching was used for inlay work, but I agree that it makes sense to think that a degree of engraving would also need to have been used.
Erik Koenig does all of his inlay work by engraving. I have watched him work and he is extremely skilled in this art. He told me though that in reality punching would also have been used. His skill did take years to develop though. He showed me a great deal, including showing me the first ever sheath he had inlaid (which he had avoided attempting until he felt sure he had developed the necessary level of skill). This sheath was quite a contrast to the work he was doing as I watched. For most of us the work would have seemed exquisite but by comparison with what he was doing when I watched him in 2005, it seemed very amateur. I felt I had learned a great deal from what had been in very real terms a master class from a master craftsman, but when I started to attempt to emulate what I had seen and been told I was very disappointed with what I managed to achieve. It really did underline for me the fact that, just like learning to play the piano to concert level, engraving and inlay work needs years of practice to achieve the necessary level of mastery. There is no shortcut to doing it right.
Most of us do not have the time or inclination to spend years working up techniques which we may only ever use once, so other solutions must be sought. As I said, I think your solution is excellent. I stand in awe of the work you have done in forging the pugio and it sheath. I am certainly not about to berate you for not dedicating an entire decade to learning a decorative technique you may never need to use again.

A laud point is hereby given to you, even if RAT3 does not seem to have the capacity to give or show laud points anymore.

Crispvs

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Thank you Crispvs for your kind words of support and laudes. If nothing else this project has given me an even deeper appreciation for those gentlemen's work.

I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed every single posting on this topic and never once felt that my numerous 'workarounds' were being judged negatively. I have, on the contrary, tried to share the challenges as much as the successes. I think the spirit of comity on RAT is outstanding, and kind of rare on the internet.

--Kelsey

[Marcus Petronius Scaevola]

Very impressive work from you. Thank you for sharing your method on the brass inlay. Do you think it would work on an already made scabbard whitout at to much destruction? My test with the punch and chisel were not very conclusive to say the least! :oops:

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Do you think it would work on an already made scabbard whitout at to much destruction? My test with the punch and chisel were not very conclusive to say the least!

Thanks Christian I think the methods I've shown here would be too hard on an already built piece. You would have a hard time getting a sufficiently solid backing to do any chiseling or graving work if you couldn't lay it flat on a hard working surface such as a heavy steel plate. For manual work, I really think that the photos of Luc de Vos work where he has bolted the plate down are worth taking note of. I learned that the hard way I had my best results after clamping the scabbard (while still flat) to a 1/4 inch steel plate with c-clamps.

If you really want something that looks good though, don't give up! You could try etching the surface with far more gentle means. I'm posting some pics of some tryouts I did using the very same galvanic etching setup I showed earlier in this thread. Only difference is I filled a shallow tray with salt water and wired the negative terminal to a big bolt. The positive terminal was clipped to a wire that ran across the backside of the scabbard. I just let it sizzle in there for about 20 minutes (you can see the bubbles on the bolt in the photo below). No chemicals, and pretty much household items at work here.

Instead of brass, I would then do some research on modern material options. We're definitely not talking period here but it could be a very fun and ultimately good looking piece in the end.

[attachment=3:20s0og5o]<!-- ia3 transfer.JPG<!-- ia3 [/attachment:20s0og5o]
[attachment=2:20s0og5o]<!-- ia2 peel.JPG<!-- ia2 [/attachment:20s0og5o]
[attachment=1:20s0og5o]<!-- ia1 inthetray.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:20s0og5o]
[attachment=0:20s0og5o]<!-- ia0 etch1.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:20s0og5o]

What you get is not for laying in wire but could be a means to an end

--Kelsey

[jkaler48]

Can you try brass plating the etched piece and buffing off the high part leaving brass in the etched part. Not original but would it give an acceptable look?

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

Can you try brass plating the etched piece and buffing off the high part leaving brass in the etched part. Not original but would it give an acceptable look?

I thought of that too. Brass of course is kind of problematic, being an alloy, but there are some easy looking DIY systems out there. I even thought of doing the opposite -- electroplating tin onto brass where a negative mask has been applied If someone does either of these, I'd love to see!

--Kelsey

[Marcus Petronius Scaevola]

Hmm! I have to look at electroplating brass or something similar hock:

[jvrjenivs]

What you get is not for laying in wire but could be a means to an end

Yeah, probably not to use to put inlay into right away, but it gives you a perfect guidance when deepening the channels, either by (hand)engravers, dremel or whatever method you'll use.

And to get more fancy results you can also play with enamel, niello, brass, silver, etc to get different results. I happen to know even a plate where the inlay was don with tin! (unfortunately that piece isn't published, yet, and I never got around to take better pictures of it).

[Tarbicus]

Some links on galvanic/electro etching that may be of general use:

http://steampunkworkshop.com/electroetch.shtml
http://www.steampunklaboratory.com/lab- ... ic-etching
http://brassgoggles.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1444.0
http://chestofbooks.com/reference/Henle ... ching.html

Really interesting.

Great pugio, by the way!

[avgvstvscaesar]

Great job Kelsy,

Your interpretation of the sheath plate is 100% correct
looking forward to see your finished sheath

Laudes

Crispus, sorry to correct you, but the folded over ends of the guard are not a creation by Deepeeka
See some of the originals
Auerberg

Auerberg

Cetina

Portogruaro

Utrecht / Vechten

Ljibljana

Haltern


as you see the folded ends where also used

Cheers

Luc

First thx on good information pictures. Actually I'm new in this, i made several workshop drawings for roman weapons according to the information i have. I ll try to post them tonight or in this days. But only the drawings... PLS to you and to the other members to help me in making them. Mine last project was the pugio and is steel in drawing. For the Pugio as form of his blade i take this pictures and they are only reference i have...

i mean i take pictures from this site:

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-pugio.html (down the pages /Second and Third Centuries/ part... ) i hope i do well

pls give me some guidance in this THX

[L_CORNELIUS_CETHEGUS]

First thx on good information pictures. Actually I'm new in this, i made several workshop drawings for roman weapons according to the information i have. I ll try to post them tonight or in this days. But only the drawings... PLS to you and to the other members to help me in making them. Mine last project was the pugio and is steel in drawing. For the Pugio as form of his blade i take this pictures and they are only reference i have...

i mean i take pictures from this site:

http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-pugio.html (down the pages /Second and Third Centuries/ part... ) i hope i do well

pls give me some guidance in this THX

Greetings - You may want to post your drawings to a new thread and give it a subject like "looking for help building items ____". I only say this because there are some very knowledgeable folks out there who might not see it if its tacked on to an older thread. I look forward to seeing them.

By the way, please add your real name to your signature... it's a forum rule.

Thanks,

Kelsey