colours of Roman standards

[redrob]

All of the illustrations and reproductions I have seen indicate that standards of the Imperial to mid Imperial period were rather plain in that they consist of shiny metal shapes (though intricately moulded in some cases) attached to plain wooden poles. Reliefs and other carvings offer no evidence of colour, and I cannot find any written description of what standards looked like from contemporaries.
However I believe that Draco’s were gaily coloured.
Given the Roman obsession for painting or colouring everything – walls inside and out, statues, friezes, floors and pavements and obviously shields, it does strike me as odd that military standards were by comparison quite dull. Not that they were not richly decorated, but it must have been quite a pain to distinguish one unit from another by these emblems alone with out any colour references. Whilst conversely there is no mistaking the identity of a unit from its shield patterning and colour (esp. according to the Not. Dit.)
From evidence at Dura, it is clear that shields were significantly more ‘snazzy’ than even Trajan’s column suggests, and of course at various times soldiers and officers were simply festooned with coloured plumes etc.
But the standards were rather plain. Then all of a sudden the standards become brightly coloured, perhaps even following a system related to shield colour, and by the time they become Byzantine, flags and standards are regulated for easy identification.

What evidence can you share as to whether military standards might be coloured or is it certain they were not. I understand that finds from the Palatine Hill in 2008 identified as Imperial standards, had some really colourful decoration.

[Nathan Ross]

military standards were by comparison quite dull. Not that they were not richly decorated, but it must have been quite a pain to distinguish one unit from another by these emblems alone

The decorations on the standards were mainly gold/gilded or silver, so would have appeared quite glittering and spectacular. We might guess that the staff itself was painted (as some later spear shafts were, apparently). Figurines or busts of the emperor(s) may have been painted too, at least in part. Then there may have been coloured fabric tassels, maybe streamers - sadly we don't have much evidence for this though!

Vexillum flags were certainly colourful - the red and gold one from Egypt suggest something of their appearance: Roman Vexillum from Egypt

there is no mistaking the identity of a unit from its shield patterning and colour... shields were significantly more ‘snazzy’ than even Trajan’s column suggests

Vegetius has the note about different cohorts in a legion being identified by 'signs' (sometimes glossed as 'colours') on their shields, and there's the bit in Tacitus about soldiers taking shields from the enemy to disguise themselves. Beyond that we don't know much about unit identification. Shield patterning generally might have been dictated by fashion - as you say, some of the Dura shields are very elaborate (although the less famous ones are considerably simpler!). This style of shield, with paintings of gods and heroes, apparently continued well into the 4th century, although most reconstructions of later legionaries tend to favour the simpler designs from the ND (which is a shame, I think - I notice the latest issue of Ancient Warfare uses the ND patterns for the Herculiani and Joviani, rather than attempting the more interesting ones from the arch of Galerius - but that's a little off the point!...)

finds from the Palatine Hill in 2008 identified as Imperial standards, had some really colourful decoration.

I didn't know about these! Do you mean the stuff often identified as the 'imperial regalia of Maxentius'? Do you have a reference, or pictures?

[Ovid]

"I didn't know about these! Do you mean the stuff often identified as the 'imperial regalia of Maxentius'? Do you have a reference, or pictures?"

I'd like to see these too. They made a big deal of it when they were found and showed a couple things in articles but I haven't seen anything about it since. Wish I could see all of it. http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/jour...nal%2Fitem

[jho]

I understand that the regalia found in Rome and associated with Maxentius are currently part of this exhibition and covered by an article in the catalogue:

Otto der Große

You can see a picture here:

MDR

[redrob]

Ahh they seem to have changed the the stuff from the Palatine from bits of standards to 'regalia' in between me first finding out about them and them going on tour!

I take the points about shiny discs - however wouldn't shiny discs be a pain to keep shiny (of course that's simply more work for soldiers to do, which no Centurion would raise an eyebrow at!)
As I understand it only a very few fragments of standards survive. I did not realise that some were actually gold.
I can understand them making these emblems out of thin sheets of copper/bronze as that would make them sturdy but can anyone be sure that these were not painted?
The imago and wreaths of various descriptions make more sense if they were painted and I was wondering about the discs themselves, could it possibly be that they were similar to French Pompom colours of the Napoleonic wars- whereby anyone could see immediately from which company a soldier was from becuase of the colour pattern. These discs appear to divided into a rim, a field and a centre, could it not be that sutch a depiction described colour boundaries rather than surface detail?
And those beehive like structures, would they be metal or could they be interwoven coloured cloth?

Please excuse me if I have blundered into a well researched area here, but any clarification would be much appreciated.

[Ovid]

Wish they would find an Aquila. There must be one still extant,somewhere.

[Pontius Agrippa]

Emperor Valerian gave including the Aurelian for the Liberation of the State of the Goths following awards and wages: four two-color flags.
The Vexilla possessed a certain color. The Vexillum was, as we know from Plutarch, of red color. Vegetius called because of their color as the Vexilla flammulae. The discovery of a Vexillums in Egypt confirmed the historical statements. It has a red color and a yellowish rim probably Been golden. And Cassius Dio reported that the Vexillum of Crassus was red. Tacitus, the golden color is mentioned in Vexilla. In Corbridge on a relief a golden border was found. On the flags towels was an endorsement by Tacitus. For one, the name of the Emperor and the other the unit to which the banner was. The relief from Corbridge is: Vexillus Leg II Avg.

[Nathan Ross]

wouldn't shiny discs be a pain to keep shiny

Not as much of a pain as all that shiny armour! ;-)

I was wondering about the discs themselves...whereby anyone could see immediately from which company a soldier was from becuase of the colour pattern.

Fascinating idea! It does sound a bit too practical for the Romans though... :unsure:

Besides, you'd need quite a complex system of numbers and colours, and they might not be too easily distinguishable in the chaos of a battlefield, perhaps. There was a theory, I think, that the number of discs on the standard related to the number of the cohort, but I don't know what current thinking on that might be. Some later signa, incidentally, had little images of the emperors on the discs, which suggests they were decorative/symbolic rather than functional.

[ValentinianVictrix]

I did put up a thread somewhile ago about something similar to do with the colour of the Draco standard. This bit in Ammianus would appear to indicate that during the Late Roman period at least some standards, both the Draco and the Vexillia, were either either entirely purple or had purple attachments-

But he was prevented by Laniogaisus, at that time a tribune, whom I have earlier stated to have been the sole witness of Constans' death, while he was serving as a subaltern. He assured Silvanus that the Franks, whose fellow countryman he was, would kill him or on receipt of a bribe betray him. So Silvanus, seeing no safety under present conditions, was driven to extreme measures, and having gradually spoken more boldly with the chief officers, he aroused them by the greatness of the reward he promised; then as a temporary expedient he tore the purple decorations from the standards of the cohorts and the companies, and so mounted to the imperial dignity.

Sed Laniogaiso vetante, tunc tribuno, quem dum militaret candidatus solum adfuisse morituro Constanti supra rettulimus, docenteque Francos, unde oriebatur, interfecturos eum aut accepto praemio prodituros, nihil tutum ex praesentibus ratus in consilia cogebatur extrema et sensim cum principiorum verticibus secretius conlocutus isdemque magnitudine promissae mercedis accensis, cultu purpureo a draconum et vexillorum insignibus ad tempus abstracto ad culmen imperiale surrexit.

[Luca]

I bought the final report of investigation about the palatine standards (http://www.edipuglia.it/volume.php?id=651), but the colour analisys of the fibers of the vexilla is still to be completed, while 90%-100% of the other examinations seems to be ended.

In the book anyway some preliminary observations are reported about the vexilla:
1) they were made of silk or linen
2) they "would" be red coloured. The fibers are mineralized so only after some additional investigations it will be confirmed
3) on the textile fibers there are no traces of gold or of other paintings, writes, etc. but these means that colours are lost, not that the vexilla were blank of course.
4) traces of gold are present on the metal remainings of the hasta, but only on some limitated areas.

[Robert Vermaat]

..were either either entirely purple or had purple attachments-

We've discussed this color before on this forum: 'purpure' was probably not the modern purple we're used to, but darker and more reddish.

[ValentinianVictrix]

..were either either entirely purple or had purple attachments-

We've discussed this color before on this forum: 'purpure' was probably not the modern purple we're used to, but darker and more reddish.

It must have been a close match for purple or why else would Silvanius attempt to cover himself in just the bits he wanted to show he was 'taking up the purple' and assuming the ultimate authority?

[Robert Vermaat]

The imperial purple was clearly not readily available, as this example shows - so if vexilla and draco tails were all from that sort of purple, it would hardly have been a problem for him to quickly sow a garment out of them?

Difference in words perhaps? Or, that purple was also not as bright as the modern colour? I'll see if I can look up the old discussion.

[M. Demetrius]

There are other ways to get a "purple" or "burgundy" color. Madder red plus a little dark grey gives one rich hue, and other dyes. Someone, I want to say Cicero, mentioned that it makes no sense to use the "Senatorial purple" dye, as so many cheaper purple dyes were available. The purple from the snail shell is the most expensive one, and is probably the one that they mean when they say "purple". Various shades of red seem purple, maroon, or brown.

That color is now avaiable, as are a host of new ones, using synthetic dyes, but none of those were invented by the ancients. They came about many centuries later.

[Evgeny]