Tunic Wool and Dye? US Sources.

[Anonymous]

Hello, I'm finally starting on my kit and have a couple of questions that I hope someone can answer. First, I'm looking for a source of suitable white wool for my tunics (in the US). I've gone through the links on Matthews XX site and am confused about what to select. I guess I'm better informed about metal than fabric. If someone could just point me at the right fabric I would appreciate it. Second, while having my coffee this morning I came to the brilliant realization that if I bought enough white wool I could dye some to give me a red tunic also. Can anyone recommend a good red dye that is close to madder red? About the only dye I have seen around here is made by RIT and again I'm confused. Please HELP. Thank you for your time in reading my lengthy post. <p></p><i></i>

[richsc]

Legio XX usually goes to MJCahn in New York. Not sure who in the US has the best prices.<br>
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You can actually get madder, but you then need a mordant for the wool. A 'mordant' is a pre-dying chemical that lets it adhere better and run less. <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!<br>
<br>
If you don't have some good experience with fabric dyeing, I'd really recommend simply finding madder-red wool to buy. You're most likely to find it through suttlers who supply Revolutionary War units. RIT dyes are easy to use for linen at least, but I remember not getting a very dark shade when I tried them on some wool years ago. Probably you'd just need a LOT more dye than I used, or maybe more heat, or both. But in any case, RIT reds are nothing like madder red, which is more like a tomato-soup color.<br>
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As Richard pointed out, natural dyes have to be used with a mordant (which is built into RIT dyes). Different mordants, along with different temperatures and a host of other variables, give different colors or shades. Iron is a mordant, so just dyeing in an iron pot with some rust will fix your dye, but it "muddies" the color. Alum is better for madder, I believe, and is used for making pickles. But with madder, the water has to be almost boiling to get a good color, but if it does boil you get brown. These are all tidbits I've picked up years ago from folks I know who did dyeing, and it was just enough to convince not to try it!<br>
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If you're recreating a soldier, go out and find the color of fabric that you want, and buy it. If you're doing an impression of a dyer, that's a whole 'nother hobby!<br>
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Good luck and Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus, Leg. XX <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Well, I wasn't exactly keen on the idea of dying, I'll see if I can find some red wool somewhere. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

MJ Cahn has a white Flannel 13115-44004 , is this what I need? They also sell melton although that looks a little shaggy but no white. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure what melton is, but the white flannel you are referring to is what I used for my toga. This is only a guess, but it might be too fine for a military tunica. Something rougher and preferrably in red, but white is good too (I'm not going to set any particular standard on color), may be better. You can purchase a fine tunica, made from either linen or heavy wool, from La Wren's Nest. I have a couple tunicas made by them. <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Ho-hum! Tunic colour again. Can I again remind people that there are representations of red, pink, off-white, (possibly) light blue, mid-blue, light green and yellowish tunics surviving from Roman times and little or no evidence which positively tells us that there was ever such a thing as a standard colour for a military tunic. Graham Sumner's list of colour evidence however, does tell us that cloak colours were significant but in most cases we cannot be sure why. Beware of modern assumptions which may have no bearing on ancient attitudes and circular arguments, both of which abound in the seemingly endless (and I feel pointless) debate about which colour tunics are correct.<br>
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Regarding natural dyes, speaking recently with some people who had experimented extensively with madder and woad dyes and who had even gone to the trouble of collecting the correct mordents (including children's and pregnant women's urine), I learned that madder can produce colours from deep red (and even brown) to orangy yellow and woad will produce a variety of shades of blue and at certain times of year can also produce a strong pink. Onion skins, as everyone knows, make an easy to produce yellow dye, the shade varying according to the age and variety of the onions, the time of year and the purity of the water. As far as white wool goes, this would be unlikely to be worn by common soldiers as it was seen as a prestigious colour (note how the word 'candida' differs from the word 'alba'). Undyed wool would be more correct for an everyday tunic in 'white'. As most people know of course, sheep come in a variety of natural shades and so undyed wool could range from near white to dark brown. Just some thoughts.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 8/11/04 9:10 pm<br></i>

[derek forrest]

You speak of Madder dying as though it is very difficult but you need to get the right kit first (including a dying thermometer as it should not boil )then its easy. There are quite a few good books on natural dying. When you have finished you will look a legionary top to bottom. It seems a shame to take all the trouble with armour etc and then don a bright red aniline dyed tunic <p></p><i></i>

[Theodosius the Great]

Hi Matthew,

RIT dyes are easy to use for linen at least, but I remember not getting a very dark shade when I tried them on some wool years ago. Probably you'd just need a LOT more dye than I used, or maybe more heat, or both.

May I ask how much you warmed the water for the wool ? Hot water, IIRC, will shrink and distort wool.

I want to get a dark purple shade for a small piece of wool so I bought black and purple RIT dye. My plan was to use the purple dye first, air dry the wool, then use the black dye. But I'm unsure how high I should risk raising the temperature.

~Theo

[tDub248]

Be careful with rit dye, every thing seems to have a synthetic red look. It seems to lean to much towards the magenta side. If your dyeing red, use lots of orange with the red. Play with it first before you jump into it, but I'd say off the top of my head 3 parts orange, 1 part scarlet red... and some dark brown too. That'll give it a bit of a old, used look. And use plenty!

[Theodosius the Great]

Thanks, Travis.

I'll experiment and test your recipe next time I need to dye a tunic red.
I've never mixed colors in one dyebath before.

~Theo

[Antonia Auriga]

Griffin Dyeworks & Fiber Arts makes great natural dyes. I had a chance to try their products at a dyeing seminar I took a few months ago. I played around with Osage Orange and Madder Red to create the 'flame' color of my Roman wedding impression I'm doing for Ft. MacAurthur in July. What's great about the company is that the actually sell complete dyeing kits that contain the dye, mordants, safety mask and gloves and a great set of instructions. I took madder and osage yellow home to do the veil. I will be sure to post my results.

[url:1kjuw4iu]http://griffindyeworks.com/[/url]

Dye kit- [url:1kjuw4iu]http://www.griffindyeworks.com/store/dyes-dye-kits-c-1_4[/url]

If you are going to dye wool or linen and don't want to worry about natural dyes, you should try to avoid Rit since it's a 'one size fits all' dye designed to cover a lot of bases and fibers. It's not bad, I use it all the time, but sometimes you want something a bit deeper or more rich or more stable (I find Rit washes out easily and I've already washed my new braccae 3 times and they are noticeably faded). For linen, get a fiber reactive dye like Procion, for wool get a protien reactive dye like Jacquard or you can also use Procion. You do have to buy special fixatives/addatives, but your results will be great when you get the color right.

Dharma Trading Co. is my favorite place to get dye- [url:1kjuw4iu]http://dharmatrading.com/html/eng/2934904-AA.shtml[/url]. I've found that if you live in CA, orders get there in no time.

My love is costuming, so I have a lot of experience with dyes. Although as I near completion of my segmentata... I'm starting to like metalwork and armor, too! If you have any questions, or need help, shoot me a PM.

P.S. The stripes on my dress and toga in my avatar are Procion Scarlett (true red) and Oxblood (rusty orange-red) on linen. : )

[richsc]

complete dyeing kits

Much appreciated! I've been trying for a long time to find a complete set of instructions or any store in the DC area that knows anything about this, and there aren't any.

[M. Demetrius]

Hooray! Another Dharma Trading Company fan! Good store, fun catalog, many hard to find products.

[Hibernicus]

Procion Dye


Also available thru Artists and Craftsmans Supply.. see if there's one near you.