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derek forrest · 09-20-2004, 04:49 PM

The school season is upon us and I already have several visits booked. One item I always wonder about is how much realism you should introduce into the killing. On the one hand you risk giving the kids the impression that looking smart was the sum total of the business of a soldier and on the other hand you end up with parents complaining about nightmares caused by descriptions of blood guts and excrement. What do our teacher colleagues feel? ). War is a dirty business and an educated population prevents leaders contemplating it lightly! Especially where few of our leaders have first hand experience.

**richsc** · 09-21-2004, 10:41 AM

My school demos are usually done during the weeks that the students are studying ancient cultures, so an overview of the Roman civilization always is a good intro. The role of the army to maintain that is probably more important to get across than the technicalities of the gladius wounds. I spend time on the parts of armor, the discipline of the army, what soldiers did, etc. 
 
But, kids love seeing you draw the sword and jab. If you can "accidentally" jab a pilum into the suspended ceiling they love that. Teachers don't though. Legio XX 
Caupona AsellinaeEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=richsc>Richsc</A> at: 9/21/04 12:42 pm

derek forrest · 09-21-2004, 05:05 PM

The question is are you doing the kids a diservice by glossing over the realities of warfare? Do you want to give them the idea that like the cowboys of old they gracefully slump into the dust or even not die at all like that ultimate pornography of violence the A Team?

Matthew Amt · 09-21-2004, 08:48 PM

Avete! 
 
It's easy enough to tell them that battle and warfare were nasty and terrifying, without getting into TOO many gory details! Depends on the age group, of course. But when I'm talking about thrusting with the sword, I tell them that barbarians all have thick skulls, to protect their brains (even if they aren't using them). (Rap my knuckles on a handy kid's head at this point!) And a slash to the skull MIGHT kill a barbarian, but it might just give him a bad cut and make him mad. Do I want him mad? No, I want him dead! So I go for the belly, where there's no bones, and down he goes. 
 
I don't have to get into the medical implications, it's enough that the kids know that this works. I do point out that Roman soldiers got all the aggression training of a modern army without any of the restraint. There was no feeling that we have to be nice to civilians, etc. Legionaries were trained, armored killers, and were not the cream of civilization. Definitely tell the kids that. War was a bad thing, so it paid to be good at it. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 09-22-2004, 08:05 AM

Before talking to students (and adults too) my introduction is usually: "before starting to tell you about the roman Army, I like to remember how the world was 2000 years ago: it was very different about general sensitiveness than now. Cruelty and bloody acts happened easily everywhere and horror and death were normal fellows along the people's life. 
Maybe that was more normal "outside" the roman Empire, than inside, but of course Romans were surely not angels... So, try to get in the roman soldiers clothes for a while and just try to see the things from their point of view and considering their mission in the History. 
 
And then: "well, the roman legion was...etc., etc..." 
 
I've seen that after that "cap" people is more disposed to listen in a more serene way even "hard" details. Included the swastikas on the Dura shield 
 
Valete, 
Titus

Mithras · 09-22-2004, 03:01 PM

I've just finished my first school talk (about an hour ago). I work at the school, which helped, and I know the kids and the teachers. I had plenty of time, and linked the classrooms interactive touch screen whiteboard to a page on my website with illustrations to back up my points. 
 
I think it went very well. I talked about the army in Britannia as a police force, describing daily activities and duties that way. And then I described a war, with boy dressed up and with a wooden spear, and me facing him with a wooden spear too. As e got closer I described the fear, showed the way you were trapped. I mentioned the killing - but dwelt more on the terror and fear of getting trapped there. I didn't go into forensic details of weapons - I dwelt more on daily life. The war was THE HORROR.

derek forrest · 09-22-2004, 10:34 PM

Yes it is true that we in the west are insulated from violence; even our newsreels are carefully edited. We do not see the beheadings or the heads stuck in the ceilings after a bombing. Yet we have managed to kill on a scale incredible to the Romans. Hitler Stalin Churchill Roosevelt Pol Pot Ruanda etc and now Darfur in the 21st century. Somehow we have to get away from the 20th century but surely a factor in our inhumanity is the distance we place beween killer and the consequences of his act. The Legionary looked into the eyes of the man he killed and felt and smelt the consequences.Do we not all have a duty to ensure that in our own small way we bring up a generation of children who will hesitate before they fire the rifle;missile or drop the bomb. Would the child take a gun or knife to school if he understood what it can do to the human body? Sometimes when I watch reenactors who fight I wonder if we fall into the same trap as the Cowboy and A team. Maybe this is the strongest argument against the fighting reenactor. We cannot portray even a portion of the reality as seen in Private Ryan so perhaps we had better avoid it all together.

09-23-2004, 03:00 AM

I had a perfectly long and talky post about this, but when I went to post it after previewing, there wasn't anything in the subject field and when I went to go back, i lost all of that wonderful post. (Warning: Page has expired") Grrrr. 
 
Ok, so here's the short of it. 
 
I've been giving public programs at Higgins Armory Museum for over 2 years now. My first School visit will be in 2 weeks. I've also given 2 public demos outside of the museum too. 
 
My auidience can be anyone from stroller-straddlers to walker-walkers...So it can be hard to judge what your core audience tollerances are until you start. 
 
Bascially it comes down to Ballance. I try to keep it as clean as I can, it's about PG-13. If I see a large number of young kids, I'll try to warn the parents, or just keep my talk clean and simple. For the most part, I'd suggest leaving the gory details at home. It's unessesary. When I give my programs, by the time I say "thrusting to the belly, sometimes giving a twist to get up behind the ribcage...." most auidence get the idea. Their facial expressions and gasps will tell you how much informtaion to give, or rather, when to stop. Most of the time I'm pointing with my Rudis/wooden waster (as I will never point the metal version at anyone) at the pulled audience member up, and say "thrust here, go for the belly," and pointing, the audience will usually put 1 and 1 together and realize this isn't particularly nice to have happen to you. 
 
I try to have people share in my excitment and enthusiasm about learning the history, and appreciating the craftsmanship as well as the nasty purpose of the weapons and equipment. Since most people are just interested in seeing sharp, pointy, shiny, metal things (and being the the museum it's the running theme), the information you're trying to give sometimes gets put on the back burner. 
 
Talking about thrusting to the belly and trying to get the opponent down quickly is one thing...Explaining how you're going to see your enemy's intestines spill onto your arm and you thrust into him, or have blood spray your armor is not only unneserssary, but can be traumatizing as well. 
 
I am now trying to emphaisize (and as has been mentioned on this discussion) that these guys were not nessesarily the nicest guys in the world. They were trained (hard) for a very speicific purpose, and thier equipment reflected this. I also try hard to show that this is not all fun and games, but I try not to sound super dead serious either. I try to include a bit of humor and a little sarcasm as well, as it lightens the mood, but shows you're not trying to traumatize them either. People stop listening if all you say is blood and guts and extreme violence, because that's all they'll dwell on. I'm concerned with talking about the history (briefly), adaptations, and the equipment/arms/armor itself (as that's my main interest as well) not about bloody details, but not being "fake" about it either. 
 
I'd suggest talking with the teacher/s before going infront of the class(es), just to be on the same page on how much detail you can get away with. 
 
For the most part, your auidence will be thrilled to see a "real live Roman!". Just be aware you'll get the young boys who'll love to hear about the gory details and pine you for it (judge yourself on that one), as monkey sees, monkey tries to emulate/experiment/show off....Young girls will probably be bored no matter what, but might also enjoy the pretty shiny stuff all over you, or might get a few giggles about the grown man in a mini-skirt. 
 
Also be prepared for the "Hey Look, A Roman Knight!" or "Greetings, Centurion!" (unless of course you are actually wearing an appropriate kit)...If I had a dollar for every time I got those comments...I'd be able to buy some nice new shiny...toys... 
 
Good luck, have fun. Always look to improve your talk.

09-23-2004, 07:43 AM

Derek, 
 
without giving away too many professional trade secrets; to be really useful to the school you need to look at the National Curriculum requirements. Also in the UK you will have consider CRB checks. 
 
If you would like further professional guidance contact me through the ez mail. 
 
Mummius

09-23-2004, 09:04 AM

A very good topic. After all, you are talking to the next generation of Roman reenactors. You might even stimulate enough interest to get a few new recruits for your unit. It's well worth putting some thought and effort into.

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