Subarmalis question

[Robert Vermaat]

It is quite possible that designs did vary as already suggested. I have come across at least seven or eight different versions that are possible contenders, which will be published shortly but basically not far off the 'cricket pad' look seen elsewhere.

P.S Robert during research for something else I came across some 17th century leather cannons! I even think they originated in your part of the world! Amazing stuff leather, has all sorts of uses including protective clothing or dare I say it, armour!

Oh, this was not meant as a vote against leather. I was merely thinking of hemp or wool or linen as the materials for a subarmalis, instead of leather. Because if you use only thin leather, what's the use? The other fabrics breathe better and are hardly less sturdy.

Leather cannons? hock: Brilliant. twisted:

[M. Demetrius]

The only thing I can think of that makes leather a possible choice for the outer layer of the subarmalis is that it is more abrasion resistant than most cloth. So next to hamata, with thousands of rings, it might be more durable.

...Or it might not. Some serious testing would be required to demonstrate the certain value of one over the other. It's just as likely to my thinking that several layers of quilted linen would do the job, be lighter, and as you point out, Robert (and many others beforehand) better at wicking moisture away, and drying much faster than leather. I've worn deerskin clothing in the rain, and not only does it get heavy quickly, it takes days to dry out, and offers no warmth during the drying process.

[Marcus Mummius]

Jeff,

Very interesting! Could you please point to the evidence, especially to the frequent cases of heavily padded helmets?

Thanks,

Salve Alexander,

Where in my post did I say these were frequent cases?
Padding is not that often preserved in helmets. This is often caused by the cleaning methods that where sadly used in the past and are alas still used a lot in this age... Organic remains that where preserved in the corrosion (either as real material in cupric corrosion or in an iron helmet replaced by corrosion that has the same structure, I don't know the english term of this, it could be 'methamorphic replacement').
When it is preserved, like is the case of the Vindonissa helmet, the padding was considerable (felt and fur, not just a thin layer of padding).

Vale,

[Robert Vermaat]

The Deurne helmet was also said to have contained 'hairs' (probably felt, not the scalp of the last owner, mind you), but it's no longer possible to ascertain how thick that padding once was.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Robert,

A relatively thick, quilted garment would certainly assist in dissipating the force of a blow. This is especially true in the case of a hamata or squamata.

There is a big difference, however, between a thin layer of leather alone, vice a subarmalis with a leather outer layer, a middle layer of, say, thick wool, and then an inner "liner" of, say, linen or other fabric, all quilted together into a relatively thick whole.

As David suggested, the leather outer layer is very resistant to tearing (which would commonly result from a blow when a hamata is worn) and is otherwise very abrasion resistant.

Edge

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Edge,

Robert,
A relatively thick, quilted garment would certainly assist in dissipating the force of a blow. This is especially true in the case of a hamata or squamata.
There is a big difference, however, between a thin layer of leather alone, vice a subarmalis with a leather outer layer, a middle layer of, say, thick wool, and then an inner "liner" of, say, linen or other fabric, all quilted together into a relatively thick whole.
As David suggested, the leather outer layer is very resistant to tearing (which would commonly result from a blow when a hamata is worn) and is otherwise very abrasion resistant.

Erm, why are you telling me this?
Brian was the one proposing that an undergarment was just a thin layer of leather.
I'm not proposing that. I'm of the same opinion as you are.

Save, maybe, about that outer layer, where I'd use hemp or something similar sturdy. Leather in my opinion is too 'probematic' in maintenance when wet. Especially when you can't get at it (for instance when it's sewn to your armour) and it starts to go bad.

[Gaius_Calvus]

Robert,

Probably because I had a momentary attack of head up my fundamental orifice. :oops:

Apologies.

Edge

[M. Demetrius]

Probably because I had a momentary attack of head up my fundamental orifice

I think the medical term is proctocephalism. :lol: