Language used by FIlmMakers

[joeandmich]

Maybe they spoke in pig Latin. Ohnay erehay omescay oudicabay!

[Robert Vermaat]

It is not at all a certainty that Latin was used as the main language by the troops in the East.

All commands were in Latin, so I suppose anything else that neede to be said to make things happen correctly was said in Latin, too.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Sorry but that is simply not the case. Nowhere in ancient literature or even ancient written finds is mentioned that commands were being uttered in Latin alone. Not even Vegetius who wrote in the 4th century mentions any of the sort.

It is a misconception that all commands were given in Latin. Of course it is a theory which has been around for a long time now, but there is no proof whatsoever.

M.VIB.M.

[Robert Vermaat]

It is a misconception that all commands were given in Latin. Of course it is a theory which has been around for a long time now, but there is no proof whatsoever.

Then I guess you haven't been reading about the Strategicon lately. The editors of that work are quite of another opinion, stressing that Latin was the Heeressprache of the Roman army, even in the East, where it remained Latin until the 7th century. And that HJ is proof enough.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Then I guess you haven't been reading about the Strategicon lately. The editors of that work are quite of another opinion, stressing that Latin was the Heeressprache of the Roman army, even in the East, where it remained Latin until the 7th century. And that HJ is proof enough.

Not at all, saying that something the editors of this book state is proof enough is very bad scholarship in my view.

I just think it is a very far stretch to put what was written in the sixth century in the Strategikon on the Roman army of the first century AD and then also state that that has always been the case in the entire Roman Army. The modern day editors of the Strategikon might stress that Latin was the Heeressprache, but it is an unsubstantiated claim lacking proof, therefore it remains a theory unproven.

One should at least be very careful when making definite statements/claims like these about the ancient world, especially with the abundance of written Greek papyri and ostraca in a Roman military context found throughout the entire Eastern region.

M.VIB.M.

[Robert Vermaat]

Not at all, saying that something the editors of this book state is proof enough is very bad scholarship in my view.

Meaning you haven't read anything about why that conclusion was reached. Too bad really, it's very interesting stuff.

I just think it is a very far stretch to put what was written in the sixth century in the Strategikon on the Roman army of the first century AD and then also state that that has always been the case in the entire Roman Army. The modern day editors of the Strategikon might stress that Latin was the Heeressprache, but it is an unsubstantiated claim lacking proof, therefore it remains a theory unproven.

Aren't you making equal claims here?
No, that's not what they say, you are making far bigger conclusions here. The modern editors (Dennis, Rance) claim the continuation of Latin as Heeressprache until the 7th c. at least. And they make a very good case for that, for instance the use of Latin commands in an otherwise entirely Greek manual for the Roman army, more than a century after the fall of the Western Empire. And they evidence is unequivocal: even though Maurice translates several ranks, he never ever uses one bit of Greek for any command, only transcribed Latin.
Now they don't ever claim that this was the case ever and for the entire army, but this and other evidence of continuing practices makes a good case for a continuity that dates back longer than, say, the 4th century. I mean, how would you possibly explain the logic of a Latin command structure in an army that existed in an area where Greek had been the dominant language for a thousand years, if not as the practice of the Roman army? Or are you seriously suggesting that during some time in it's existance, the commands in the Roman army were given in Greek, before being reverted back to Latin?
It's been argued before that the Strategicon represented a totally new development in the Roman army, but this has time and again been disproven.

One should at least be very careful when making definite statements/claims like these about the ancient world, especially with the abundance of written Greek papyri and ostraca in a Roman military context found throughout the entire Eastern region.

I think you are mistaking what we are discussing here: I'm talking about commands here, and perhaps the language of the official talk of the army when it comes to functional stuff, NOT what the soldiers spoke between themselves. That might be Greek, Syriac, Arameic, other languages, as I clearly stated earlier in this discussion.

[Alanus]

Gentlemen,

I'm inclined to agree with Robert, military Latin (in the Real world)-- for "continuity's sake," as they say in the talking-picture industry. BUT this thread discusses language used by film-makers, a whole 'nuther ball-game. Usually the orders were given in English. :grin:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Robert, I understand what you mean. It is indeed more feesible that commands were given in one language since that simplifies command in the field. Therefore the conclusions of the modern editors of the Greek manual are probably not far off.

And Alanus is obviously right when stating filmmakers dont know squat.

M.VIB.M.

[joeandmich]

Even though I'm not a scholar or historian I think what Robert said makes sense. Military around the world have their own unique form of language that civilians can barely understand but they are always based on the language of the country of origin. An example would be the French Africa Corps or French Foreign Legion. They had members from all cultures but commands were in French. N'est pas?

[Decimus Brutius Varus]

Robert--is there somewhere we can access this online?

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert--is there somewhere we can access this online?

Um, what exactly?

[Decimus Brutius Varus]

It is a misconception that all commands were given in Latin. Of course it is a theory which has been around for a long time now, but there is no proof whatsoever.

Then I guess you haven't been reading about the Strategicon lately. The editors of that work are quite of another opinion, stressing that Latin was the Heeressprache of the Roman army, even in the East, where it remained Latin until the 7th century. And that HJ is proof enough.

[Robert Vermaat]

Ah, the Strategicon. No, I'm afraid that one is not online as far as I know. There's this edition:
Maurikios: Strategikon, Handbook of Byzantine Military Strategy, trans. by George T. Dennis, (Philadelphia 1984).

And the new edition by Philip Rance, which we are awaiting eagerly!