N. American Romans :Too few of us to fight

[jkaler48]

In North America here are so few of us promoting reenacting and the study of history that it makes little sense for us to pitch pila at our own feet! Every effort should be make to be inclusive and resolve disputes that threaten the growth of the hobby. Only criminal acts or repeated gross safety violations should be basis for banning people from events. Anything else ought to be able to be worked out by negotiation and compromise. As far as discussion boards moderation usually is able to keep discussion civil and banning or exclusion should be a last resort. Even people who are right all of the time are right
some of the time and their opinions should be respected for the fact that they are trying their best even if they are sometimes or even often mistaken.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yep!

[Narukami]

Historian John Toland wrote (for the introduction to his book, The Rising Sun) " ... that it is human nature that repeats itself, not history"

I also agree with Goldsworthy (How Rome Fell) that Rome essentially killed itself by fighting almost constant civil wars.

So now we seem to have a civil war breaking out in the Roman Research Community pitting North America against Europe. hock: :?

I think it worth noting that, way back when, RAT was started by a US Army Officer while she was stationed in Egypt (if I remember my internet history correctly). She was not concerned about who or where, only that the interest was in Ancient Rome, and by extension ancient history in general. That philosophy, as best I can tell, remains the guiding light of RAT

Although the membership of RAT is predominately re-enactors, it is not exclusively so and never has been. Hell, I came here (recommended by the Ermine Street Guard) looking for information about Roman toy soldiers. I was so fascinated by what I found I never left.

I too received an invitation to the new North American Forum, and I do appreciate the invitation, however I agree with Jkaler48, I do not see the need for a split, particularly one based on geography or politics or even philosophy. If the break was about focus, as in the new group was more interested in Feudal Japan for example, then a new forum would make sense. (Although the number of RAT members with a deep knowledge of pre-modern Japanese history is quite impressive in and of itself.)

Because I am not a re-enactor perhaps I do not fully understand or appreciate what this argument is about, but I do not see a problem with RAT.

Do I agree with everything I read here? No. But, I have gotten more good information than bad and so much so that I would be hard pressed to point out examples of the latter as opposed to the former.

Are my views on politics, religion, philosophy or current events in sync with the other members of RAT? Absolutely not. But it doesn't matter -- I'm here to talk about the ancient world. Yes, sometimes current event intrude, but the members of the forum have been good about keeping the modern world at bay in favor of the ancient.

Perhaps there is a good reason for a new forum, but for me at least, I will remain here.

:wink:

Narukami

[Robert Vermaat]

In North America here are so few of us promoting reenacting and the study of history that it makes little sense for us to pitch pila at our own feet! Every effort should be make to be inclusive and resolve disputes that threaten the growth of the hobby.

Agreed.

Only criminal acts or repeated gross safety violations should be basis for banning people from events. Anything else ought to be able to be worked out by negotiation and compromise.

While I agree with the latter as a matter of principle, I hesitate to agree with the words 'should not'. If an event is a privately organised affair, it's up to each organisation to do what they want, preferably within their own rules. it's to say it bluntly, 'their party', and if someone does not like it, he should not want to attend. Harsh, but that's it - you can't force your own standards (as high as they might be) on others.

As far as discussion boards moderation usually is able to keep discussion civil and banning or exclusion should be a last resort. Even people who are right all of the time are right some of the time and their opinions should be respected for the fact that they are trying their best even if they are sometimes or even often mistaken.

As far as this board goes that mostly true. Yes, most people are mistaken some of the time. But being right or wrong is not what matters, it's how we discuss and react to others.

[ParthianBow]

Do I take it that there is now a North American RAT forum?

[richsc]

I agree that there just aren't enough of us to split here in north America. Dilute would be a better word. But as Matt Amt said once, ego drives the formation of most groups.

For me, compromise, inclusion and open discussion beats all alternatives.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I agree that there just aren't enough of us to split here in north America. Dilute would be a better word. But as Matt Amt said once, ego drives the formation of most groups.

For me, compromise, inclusion and open discussion beats all alternatives.

There really aren't a lot; there were only like 10 people in Legio VI, like 6, in Legio 11, and 3-4 from Legio IX and Legio XX at last year's Castra Romana (One of the Biggest Roman Re-enacting Events in the South-East). All in all there's only about 6 LEgions on the East coast totat.

It would be pointless to make a North American Board because there's no History of Rome in the Americas. People don't care like they do about Civil war or Revolutionary War Re-enacting.

[M. Demetrius]

As best I can determine, as well as I could digest it, and throw out duplicate names (some folks are "members" of several groups) there are probably less than 200, and likely more like 100 active members in the Roman community in North America. There are members of some of groups who say, "I won't allow [name/class/type/other criterion] to participate in [whatever]". As long as that attitude remains, the group will be fragmented.

There are people I don't personally feel close to, but in the interest of most events, I can do a task and not let my personal feelings get in the way. There are also people who are deliberately antagonistic, or some who don't want to participate in church-related functions (for example). Some people/groups don't want to attend public-access events. Once I know that, I won't invite them to those venues, because they won't attend anyway.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

As best I can determine, as well as I could digest it, and throw out duplicate names (some folks are "members" of several groups) there are probably less than 200, and likely more like 100 active members in the Roman community in North America. There are members of some of groups who say, "I won't allow [name/class/type/other criterion] to participate in [whatever]". As long as that attitude remains, the group will be fragmented.

There are people I don't personally feel close to, but in the interest of most events, I can do a task and not let my personal feelings get in the way. There are also people who are deliberately antagonistic, or some who don't want to participate in church-related functions (for example). Some people/groups don't want to attend public-access events. Once I know that, I won't invite them to those venues, because they won't attend anyway.

Our Re-enactment group is a church Organiztion cause we do Venues for Churches and promote Christianity at our events through some of our various "plays." We'll attend all sorts of events, right now I'm going up to Wake Forest University for the National Junior Classical League on Saturday (1400 people will be there!). Our 2 biggest events are the Italian Festival in Columbia SC (that was amazing, they had 2-3 World Renowned Italian bands there and like the whole city came out to attned) and our own Castra Romana (we get a few hundred visitors there I think). People think it's cool and stuff but they don't want to be a part of it. It's just not an american thing.

There is quite a bit of diversity around though; there's about 2 late roman groups on the east coast (albeit they only have like 3 people each) and some of the principate groups cover from Marian times to the 3rd Century (Like Legio IX)

[Pieter Laubscher]

Narukami wrote:
"So now we seem to have a civil war breaking out in the Roman Research Community pitting North America against Europe."

So are the rumours true? A split? I hope NOT!! I recently spoke to a couple of people that I know in the reenactment world here (both Roman and other-period) who have told me that there is now a rift between North America and Europe here on RAT. One person I have heard of will apparently not even buy Ancient Warfare Magazine, because of it's association with RAT (big loss for him in my opinion). But could it really be true? I will first of all say that maybe I am not on the Forum enough, or maybe I'm too thick skinned to notice, but I have not noticed any hostility from any of our European brethren. I for one will not abandon RAT. I have received noting but kind and educated responses to my questions. I think there is too much on this Forum to abandon. I think that there is too much to be learned, too many good brains to be picked to leave RAT, and too many really nice people!

Magister Militum Flavius Aetius wrote:
"It would be pointless to make a North American Board because there's no History of Rome in the Americas. People don't care like they do about Civil war or Revolutionary War Re-enacting."
I think you are right about the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. We do not have that tangible connection to the history of Greece, Rome, and the Middle Ages etc.. like we do to the history connected to our land. This is the connection Europeans have to this history (Rome etc..), we should respect that. While I'm sure there may be some of our friends in Europe, who think: "What the hell do Americans and Canadians have to do with Rome/Greece etc..?" - Well I'm sure that (as a matter of fact I've heard it voiced), some Americans wonder: "What the hell are these Euro-types doing reenacting American Civil War?!!" I do not think that we should have to feel this way about what we do. We do have a connection to Europe. But we do have to realize that we do not have the historic connection to the land. But then neither do the Irish, Poles or Finns etc.. The fact is that we are here because WE CARE about Roman history, archeology and reenactment etc.. I will not let anyone tell me to be provincial and then accuse me of it, or vice-verso. Besides many of us who live in north America are not originally from here. Are we to abandon our histories?
As previously stated I think this is probably much ado about nothing. I have not noticed any negative reason on RAT for separating and starting a North American Forum.

Pieter.

[arklore70]

Personally, I don't see the rift between Europe and North America. Are there differences of opinion, of course, but that is all I have ever seen here. I'd be lost in this hobby it was not for the assistance and help of many of my European friends who freely gave of themselves for my further understanding.

In North America, there are some rifts, and the power of opinion and ego have overridden common sense and the greater good of the hobby at times. That said, the hobby still grows here and in 7 years I have seen it expand.

Case in point, LEGIO VI FFC now has cohorts in Nevada, Florida, and the Pacific North West besides the first cohort in South Carolina. The second cohort in the Pacific North West went from 4 members to 20 actively participating members in 2 years.

Unfortunately, there have been a couple of folks who have been deliberately uninvited to future events due to the acidity, divisiveness, immaturity and caustic nature of their personalities. I have knowledge of a couple of cases and i can tell you that the individuals talked too were advised, counseled, warned and then only as a very last option, told to not come back.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Guess things are about the same this side of the pond Mike.
Some people don't like to be disagreed with.
if it's their ball, you get booted out....

C'est la Vie....

Dave's figure of only 100 in N America is a bit of a surprise though, I always thought there were more!

However, if the disagreement comes from 'my way or the high' way attitudes,
then the group is not worth being a part of any way.

I think, as someone I have a bit of resect for in this game said,
Roman reenacting seems to be reflecting the real Roman world in one way at least!
Perhaps if people realised they were not emperors, but we are all in the same game,
the whole period would benfit.

[M. Demetrius]

That informal, unscientific survey was about 4 years ago, GJC. I haven't searched it out since. Can't count members in yahoogroups, however, as many people are that sort of members of many groups.

[A_Volpe]

There is an awful lot to sift through here.

As it usually happens, there are several factors as to why Roman reenacting here in the US is not as prominent as it is in Europe. But to say it's because "there is not Roman history in US history" is incredulous, and dare I say, misinformed.

While we may not have a -direct- connection to the Romans, seeing as we're not only faced with a geographical gap but a 2,000 year (someodd) gap, we still have a heritage, cultural and historical connection.

Although I will agree with the adage that the Revolutionary and Civil Wars are certainly pivotal and "closer" to our country's history - But there are Roman influences all around. Colonial expansion, for one, is essentially a Roman idea; Why was it called the Grand Army of the Republic? Was it not called that in the flavor of the ROMAN Republic? The Fasces show up in all sorts of symbolic imagery in US art and sculpture. It's on our currency and on our Memorials. What about Federalist architecture? Roman Days put on by Legion XX has been held at Riverdale Mansion in Maryland for the past few years, and that mansion is entirely based on Roman, albeit Romanesque, architecture.

Latin was (and still is to a degree) a crucial language taught in schools in this country. (we put in on our currency and mottos: E Pluribus Unum; Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem) Learning the Classics continues to be a popular draw.

SO, to say there is "no" connection to Ancient Rome to the US I find a bit misleading and misinformed.

I will admit here that yes, Ancient Rome is a very hard "sell" here in the States. Perhaps not as difficult as say Medieval-Renaissance (The whole Ren Faire and SCA issue), but I've lost count how many times I've been called "Gladiator" or "Spartan", even when I mention I'm a Roman Soldier. It is what it is, and we just have to deal.

Anyway.
The other problem is we have a gigantic country. Travelling can be awfully expensive and keeps the few of us Romans in the US from really going anywhere (pardon the pun).

As much as I'd -like- to attend something like Fort Lafe, it is terribly expensive and would take a lot of time to travel to and from. Flying there would be even more expensive (and forget about taking a scutum on a plane, I've tried). The few of us who have barely-descent paying jobs are so overworked or overscheduled can't get enough time off to do events. Those of us who are under or un employed don't have the funding to begin with. Younger reenactors who are just getting into the hobby don't have the time or money to invest, and usually get taken away for College or employment.

We have similar troubles with Legion III Cyrenaica in New England. A few of our members have to drive 3+ hours one-way to get to our few events, and, so many of us have other time periods and groups (outside of jobs as mentioned), as well as families, our schedules get eaten up really fast, and certainly in N.E. we have maybe 4 months of descent weather.

As with something like Lafe, I, Personally, don't care much for Immersion type events, I happen to LIKE interacting with the public and school groups. There is SO much we don't know and very little we DO, and even then, what we do, or THINK we know is questions and debated to no end. So in my personal view, Immersion doesn't really fit the bill, but I know there are others out there who LOVE immersion, and in the end, this is all totally fine and I only mention it here, it is not at all calling out anyone or group or purpose.

(I will say briefly that IF we had more reenactors, dedicated enthusiastic reenactors bent on good research and reconstruction, etc etc, AND, if travel cost wasn't as ridiculous, Perhaps I'd be more eager to do more immersion more often, since More Bodies makes for a Better Experience, I think. I believe part of the difference between US and Europe is because the US has so few Romans, public interaction for US seems to be the "best" way to get ourselves out there, while it appears (and I may be wrong) that Euro has the advantage of a lot of Romans who are also sponsored to do events, and can put on a better large group display/event) BUT this is getting way off track)

Also in combination with us who have other time periods, there is a bit of a sticker shock I've noticed, with having to buy and make gear, including armor which needs regular maintenance. While that sounds a little short-ended, seeing as many of us who to Rev and Civ Wars having to clean blackpower muskets etc. But there is also getting used to the weight and wearing the armor for extended periods. Wearing a wool uniform when it's 90 degrees and shooting blanks at each other is one thing, wearing armor in 90 degrees is a different ball game.

The other plain factor here is as mentioned, Ego.