Equine equipment.

[Salvianus]

D

[John Conyard]

Good morning,

Salvianus has summerised my article correctly. Roman saddles had wooden frames, and I would like a version that I can use of a variety of horses for long periods without hurting any of them.

The Carlisle finds mirror saddle covers clearly shown on some tombstones, such as that of Marcus Sacrilus of Cologne. They would make removal of the leather cover relatively easy. But the leather cover is not really needed to prevent chaffing. Saddle cloths or leg wraps also do a good job. In fact close leg contact with the horse is not such a bad thing, to direct it and to hang on for dear life!

Crispvs, the saddle illustrated in the article is in fact not a Peter Connolly reconstruction. It is a saddle in use by the Royal Armouries in Leeds. It is of interest because it is flexible, but uses a frame. Sadly it is made from modern materials, but something can always be learnt. Fortunatus is charged with the Comitatus web-site, and needs to use every photo we send him to illustrate articles. Sadly we don't always send him what he needs. He just used a picture of what seemed a generic Roman saddle.

While our group illustrates the Roman army from all periods of Roman Britain, we specialise in the period around 400 AD. By this time the four horned saddle would have been an interesting antique. But I still want one! Currently my prefered mount, a failed race horse, doesn't like my authentic saddle cloth. I can only imagine what he'll do when he sees the saddle! :o

[caiusbeerquitius]

Roman saddles had wooden frames, and I would like a version that I can use of a variety of horses for long periods without hurting any of them.

The best working reconstruction I have seen so far has no wooden frame. It has stabilizing rawhide strips inside, and is extremely flexible, yet stable. Is there any evidence for wooden frames in Roman saddles which supports your definite statement, and if so, which?

[mcbishop]

Roman saddles had wooden frames, and I would like a version that I can use of a variety of horses for long periods without hurting any of them.

The best working reconstruction I have seen so far has no wooden frame. It has stabilizing rawhide strips inside, and is extremely flexible, yet stable. Is there any evidence for wooden frames in Roman saddles which supports your definite statement, and if so, which?

The 'evidence' before the recent Carlisle finds was the form of the reconstructed object (which made no sense without a wooden frame) and the stretching of the leather covers from sites like Valkenburg and Vindolanda. However, the covers from the Carlisle Millennium excavations (where the armguards came from) bear the impressions of a wooden frame and confirm Connolly's original interpretation (much to his delight!).

Incidentally, the metal saddle plates have long been regarded by many saddle builders (outside the 'floppy' school of equine upholstery) as superfluous, but there is a rising tide of opinion that they may have been used on the outside of the saddle to protect the horns in combat. I reserve my judgement until we find an intact saddle somewhere ;-)

Mike Bishop

[Tarbicus]

the metal saddle plates have long been regarded by many saddle builders (outside the 'floppy' school of equine upholstery) as superfluous, but there is a rising tide of opinion that they may have been used on the outside of the saddle to protect the horns in combat.

Why protect the horns? Unless the cavalryman's legs were protected as well, I can't really see the point.

[Salvianus]

The best working reconstruction I have seen so far has no wooden frame. It has stabilizing rawhide strips inside, and is extremely flexible, yet stable.

Interesting, any opinion on wooden frame elements, to fit the pieces found, combined or even laminated with such rawhide or sinew material like a bow to give it more flexibilty and resilience? Purely speculatively, of course?

[Crispvs]

I don't know enough about wood to answer that one, but I would guess birch would have some of the properties required. As I stated above, the piece of wood found in the Carlisle Millenium excavations was the boomerang shaped piece predicted by Connolly which froms the front end of his reconstructed frame. This piece of wood was pierced by three holes, two in the correct positions to accommodate the ends of the horizontal bars in Connolly's reconstruction and a further one through the apex of the piece which (as far as I know) remains unexplained.

Crispvs

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

LUCIUS ALFENUS and Caiustarquitius

The set of four horns come at 500,-Euro without the holes drilled,
I now its a lot of money but its a lot of work to

Luc

[Lepidina]

The 'evidence' before the recent Carlisle finds was the form of the reconstructed object (which made no sense without a wooden frame) and the stretching of the leather covers from sites like Valkenburg and Vindolanda. However, the covers from the Carlisle Millennium excavations (where the armguards came from) bear the impressions of a wooden frame and confirm Connolly's original interpretation (much to his delight!).

The other indirect evidence to support using some sort of frame is with modern "treeless" saddles. I've ridden in a few and they just don't stay on the horse as well as saddles with trees, no matter how tight you cinch up the girth. If you are riding in battle and need a stable saddle, a treeless one is NOT the way to go. If you are riding straight and not doing any tight turns at high speeds, you are fine - IF - and it's a big IF - you are a balanced rider to begin with. If not, you're slipping all over the place.

Now one would assume that Roman calvarymen would be balanced riders.

The other indirect evidence for a saddle tree is that the tree distributes the weight of the rider over the horse's back. If you are riding long distances, your seat bones become like two hammers beating into the horse's back and will make it sore. Sore horses will not be happy horses and not be good for battle. Today, if I get a horse that bucks a lot or is being extremely resistant, the first thing I do is check the saddle fit.

As for coverings for the horns, maybe it was mainly to keep them from wearing out. If you are slinging a shield on your back or holding it in front of you, it's bound to rub up against the leather which will cause wear. You are more likely going to scratch or rip the leather on the horns as opposed to on the seat so that is where you would put reenforcements. And you'd want to put reenforcements on all 4 horns to make them look all nice and symeterical.

[Nantonos]

Legio Prima Germanica it's making a III century roman cavalry soldier impresion. So, we need some information about the equine equipment used, clearly diferent from the flavian usually showed by other groups.

Any information will be very grated, specially pictures, drawings, info on-line and so.

You may find these books useful; I expect you know many of them already but just in case:

Connolly, P. (1988) Tiberius Claudius Maximus, The Cavalryman. Oxford, Oxford University Press.ISBN 0199104247
Inexpensive, heavily illustrated

Dixon, K. R. and P. Southern (1992) Roman Cavalry : from the first to the third century AD. London, Batsford. ISBN 0713463961
good discussion, some diagrams. Mainly focuses on equipment and organization. See pp.173-5 for info on brand marks, which could be painted on for reconstruction purposes.

Hyland, A. (1993) Training the Roman cavalry : from Arrian's Ars Tactica. Dover, NH, Alan Sutton. ISBN 0862999847
Training the horse, per Arrian

Kemkes, M. and J. Scheurbrandt (1997) Zwischen Patrouille und Parade: die Römische Reiterei am Limes. Stuttgart, Theiss. ISBN 3-8067-1440-9
In German. Has photos of cavalry re-enactors on the Germanic limes.

MacDowall, S. and C. Hook (1995) Late Roman Cavalryman, 236-565AD. Oxford, Osprey Publishing. ISBN 1841762601
Some diagrams and color pictures.

[RUBICON]

Roman saddles had wooden frames, and I would like a version that I can use of a variety of horses for long periods without hurting any of them.

The best working reconstruction I have seen so far has no wooden frame. It has stabilizing rawhide strips inside, and is extremely flexible, yet stable. Is there any evidence for wooden frames in Roman saddles which supports your definite statement, and if so, which?[quote]

Raw hide strips sounds possible much like the suspension type saddles found for the military during WW1 used by the Australian Light brigade. Though they have trees, the seat is suspended. As a horse rider, this seems more comfortable. Many current day endurance saddles have suspended seats too....

As Lepidina suggested, saddles need to distribute weight evenly over teh horses back.

The old Light brigade saddles did this fairly well.

[drsrob]

That is a version of the steel arch saddle adopted in the late 19th century. But suspension type saddles are much older. The idea of a suspended leather seat was taken from the Hungarian tree-saddle.
Thee later is - I beleive - derived from the Avar saddle.

[Peroni]

Roman saddles had wooden frames, and I would like a version that I can use of a variety of horses for long periods without hurting any of them.

Did they ? entirely wood or just the front and rear trees? After all we only have Connolly as a source for a fully framed/tree'd saddle. I know the Carlisle find had an impression of a wooden component but that does not mean to say they ALL did.

If your horse died, and the saddle you have is wooden-framed and was made to fit that horse, it surely wouldn't fit the next horse which may be greatly different in size and shape.

A colleague of mine has flexible Roman saddle which is tightly stuffed with horsehair in the centre section, still rigid enough to be practical, but it works on any horse. The only wooden parts are the horns at each end.

Even the horns can be solidly stuffed with either sawdust or horsehair. They can also have copper alloy strenghtheners shaped to the rider too for added internal (or external depending on your theory!) rigidity.

I've ridden a flexible Roman saddle and I have to say it works far better than a rigid one. More comfortable for the rider and as Lepidina said earlier for the horse too.

[John Conyard]

While there is much yet to discover about Roman saddles I feel it is always safer to stick with what we have found, rather than what we may think. We have evidence that wooden saddle trees existed, so we must base our reconstructions around them. Four-horned saddles had wooden frames, as did the the later Steppe saddle. They work well and the discomfort is transient.

I posted some time ago that wooden frames are inflexible and current reconstructions do not tend to fit more than one horse. This in part can be offset by the padding used under the saddle. Much like the Light Brigade, and other 19th century cavalrymen, who had many different regulation ways of folding their saddle cloths to obtain a correct fit for their wooden framed saddles. Currently I'm using two wooden framed saddles on the same horses, one large one small. Varying the padding under the saddle makes them fit, more or less.

However before I'm too old to benefit from the discovery, I hope to see archaeological evidence confirming the construction of the tree, and the materials used. There would have to be a degree of flexibility, and we are working towards it.