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Any talk of leather armour being impractical due to water penetration is nonsense. We have many hundreds of 17th and 18th century jugs and tankards made of hardened leather - they were obviously made to be watertight.
There are also examples of hardened leather firemen's helmets dating from the same period. I think that we can credit our ancestors with the wit to recognise a material that could be usefully employed to protect the body from injury due to impacts - we can at least extend the Romans a similar level of practical knowledge and capability, and admit that hardened leather armour is at least a possibility.
Martin
Fac me cocleario vomere!
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Hi Martin. I agree with You about tankards et all being waterproof, although most I have seen do have an inner coating of pitch to waterproof it....in fact I own 2.. one for Antonia and 1 for me.
What o have to say next MAY put paid to this discussion: To wit: I hot water shrank armour grade leather and let it try in the sun. I then mounted it on the chest of a mannequin. The leather was now approx 3/4 of a Centimeter thick. Using my sharpened Spatha, I started a form of Kata to work myself up to speed and lo and behold, on my first strike , I cut right through the leather!!!!! DAN HOWARD, You HAVE Been AVENGED!!!!!!!!!!. Conclusions? Use leather for parade armor, LARPing, S.C.A., but NOT for accurate re-enactment!!!!!! Besides, If Sean Richey in the Roman Empire.net can have his colleague make decent musculatas, we as a group can too. I'm going to try after Jaqui healas from her surgery. (Which comes next Tues ). And frankly, if I can.....anyone can.......may be not Brian or Matt's quality...but its a start
Salvete, Mi Frater
Virturvis.....aka Larry Mager
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Quote:, and admit that hardened leather armour is at least a possibility.
It is possible that Romans wore pink tutus and ninja pajamas too. It is good to keep an open mind but not so open that your brain falls out.
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Dan,
A...men,A...men.,A-A-A-A-Men I have to say it: From recent experience...VERY recent experience, a Leather Musculata
DOESN'T WORK!!!!!! It works for Larp and SCA, BUT THATS IT!!!!!!!!
THAT's why I said that Dan has been Avenged!!! If you can't get brass or bronze, dtry steel @ the nearest scrap yard.
That's what I'm doing.
Salve,
Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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Quote:Urselius post=341071 Wrote:, and admit that hardened leather armour is at least a possibility.
It is possible that Romans wore pink tutus and ninja pajamas too. It is good to keep an open mind but not so open that your brain falls out.
The trouble with a good many of the opinions expressed here is that they are very parochial. If you think outside of the particular era of Antiquity that interests you, then you may find that parallels exist concerning physical processes which may shed light on questions unanswerable by present archaeological knowledge.
An officer of the light cavalry of Napoleon's guard looked at the iron cuirassier helmets that had been cut into by Austrian swords in battle and stated that he would rather trust his life to a stout leather shako (military hat) that to an iron-skulled helmet. I presume that his brains had already fallen out, so did not need to protect his head. In 1815 the British heavy cavalry wore leather helmets (with brass reinforcing) as did many other heavy cavalry throughout Europe - but perhaps they were brainless gallopers anyway.
Moulded leather helmets were used by firemen from at least the Stuart period (17th century) up to the development of high density plastics, because they PROVIDED PROTECTION and didn't conduct heat like metal helmets.
Cut to the chase - many examples of moulded, hardened leather items for personal protection were manufactured, many can be found in museums today - some were made by layering leather with glue onto textile (has anyone tried this in making musculata?) in moulds. Therefore making protective items from moulded leather was quite possible, such items must have been effective (otherwise they would not have been in use for centuries), therefore the Romans could have used similar techniques to make armour.
The logic of this argument is unassailable. It opens up a possiblity that even the brainless should be able to apprehend.
Martin
Fac me cocleario vomere!
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Uh. This is getting a nasty tone.
Anyway: It is one thing to leave the idea that leather musculatae may have existed open, but an other thing to make a reproduction based on nothing but thin air. If you do it at home, fine. But please, don´t show it to the public on events.
Christian K.
No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.
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I'd imagine at an event, you could put it up on a display stand or something and explain that it is a hypothetical reconstruction.
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Quote:Dan Howard post=341106 Wrote:Urselius post=341071 Wrote:, and admit that hardened leather armour is at least a possibility.
It is possible that Romans wore pink tutus and ninja pajamas too. It is good to keep an open mind but not so open that your brain falls out.
The trouble with a good many of the opinions expressed here is that they are very parochial. If you think outside of the particular era of Antiquity that interests you, then you may find that parallels exist concerning physical processes which may shed light on questions unanswerable by present archaeological knowledge.
An officer of the light cavalry of Napoleon's guard looked at the iron cuirassier helmets that had been cut into by Austrian swords in battle and stated that he would rather trust his life to a stout leather shako (military hat) that to an iron-skulled helmet. I presume that his brains had already fallen out, so did not need to protect his head. In 1815 the British heavy cavalry wore leather helmets (with brass reinforcing) as did many other heavy cavalry throughout Europe - but perhaps they were brainless gallopers anyway.
Moulded leather helmets were used by firemen from at least the Stuart period (17th century) up to the development of high density plastics, because they PROVIDED PROTECTION and didn't conduct heat like metal helmets.
Cut to the chase - many examples of moulded, hardened leather items for personal protection were manufactured, many can be found in museums today - some were made by layering leather with glue onto textile (has anyone tried this in making musculata?) in moulds. Therefore making protective items from moulded leather was quite possible, such items must have been effective (otherwise they would not have been in use for centuries), therefore the Romans could have used similar techniques to make armour.
The logic of this argument is unassailable. It opens up a possiblity that even the brainless should be able to apprehend. It is pretty piss-poor armour that can't stop a sword cut. It only takes a few layers of cloth or a layer of felt to stop a sword cut. My leather jacket can stop a sword cut but a pencil goes straight through it. None of the above examples can stop an arrow or spear thrust, which is what real armour was intended to stop. None of the attempted leather musculata reconstructions can stop them either.
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It is 0958 Eastern Daylight Savings time here in Ohio, U.S.A. After getting up, checking E-Mail, reading this thread, I went out, set up my section of boiled leather and put 8 arrows and 2 Javelin throws through it. After that experience, here I am.
My conclusion.....Once again, Dan IS right!!! BTW, I stood approx 300' awaay from the target.
I admit that I have disagreed with Dan in the past, but @ NO time have I ever publicly even implied an insult. That's a quick way for the Moderator to boot one off the Board. Parochial.....? Not really, I know of a number of members who have multiple degrees in various fields. A number of them speak multiple languages. A number of them are published authors in their own right. Parochial?......I seriously doubt it! Let's try to be civil to each other as 99.9% of us are, OK?
Salvete
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
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Reply to Dan Howard
The cuirassier helmets with iron skulls were not stopping sword cuts - at the Battle of Aspern-Essling - but Charles Parquin of the Imperial Guard thought that a leather shako would. That is my point, metallic armour is not always superior to other forms of protection. Homer speaks of leather helmets and bull's hide shields. He specifically asserts that bull's hide shields, made of layers of hide, could stop a thrown javelin. The Zulus used cow-hide shields which were intended to stop ixthwa (assegai) spear thrusts.
As far as reconstructed muscle cuirasses and their performance, then there are two valid interpretations:
1) hardened leather does not make very good armour
2) the treatment of the leather was sub-optimal and better armour is possible if the leather treatment is optimised.
Given that there are a number of examples of Medieval horse armour barding elements made of leather in existence, and leather armour for humans is found in a number of recent non-European cultures, then interpretation #2 is more conservative than interpretation #1.
Martin
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Quote:It is 0958 Eastern Daylight Savings time here in Ohio, U.S.A. After getting up, checking E-Mail, reading this thread, I went out, set up my section of boiled leather and put 8 arrows and 2 Javelin throws through it. After that experience, here I am.
My conclusion.....Once again, Dan IS right!!! BTW, I stood approx 300' awaay from the target.
I admit that I have disagreed with Dan in the past, but @ NO time have I ever publicly even implied an insult. That's a quick way for the Moderator to boot one off the Board. Parochial.....? Not really, I know of a number of members who have multiple degrees in various fields. A number of them speak multiple languages. A number of them are published authors in their own right. Parochial?......I seriously doubt it! Let's try to be civil to each other as 99.9% of us are, OK?
Salvete
Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
I have 3 university degrees including a PhD, I'm a professional scientist. I have had a number of articles on military history, albeit Napoleonic rather than Roman, published, and have authored more than a dozen peer-reviewed scientific research papers (including publication in 'Nature') and several chapters in specialist textbooks. I obviously have interests other than Greco-Roman military history, including the history of other periods. By parochial I mean that a certain proportion of people posting here apparently have quite narrow fields of interest, and do not seem to look at cultures and periods beyond Mediterranean Antiquity in order to make valid comparisons, or at least they appear to be resistant to parallels being drawn from these sources. And no, I don't like the insinuation being made that - as a result of making a valid point - I am brainless. If I reacted to this insunuation in a similar vein, then you should not be surprised.
Please note that I am not a proponent for antique muscle cuirasses being of leather, only that the possiblity exists - given evidence from other times and cultures - that they could have been so constructed.
Martin
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Hi Martin,
I share Your interests in the Napoleonic Era.....In particular, the Naval aspects all the way through the 1812 war and on through the Civil War. Considering I grew up up river from St. Louis and many times crossed the James Eads bridge (Pook's Turtles creator), I also have multiple interests. The point that I was making is this: None of us are going to convince folks who disagree with us that we MAY be right. Of course we MAY be wrong. Short of the proverbial time-machine, we may never know who's right and who's wrong.
If I might suggest something: If one wishes a musculata for Larp combat, get a leather musculata and rub-n-buff it.
If one wishes a metal musculata.....save up money and have Matt Luke make it for one.
BTW Martin, as a Navyman, I have to say, "Coasties" are all alright with me!
Salve,
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
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Hki Martin,
I share Your interests in the Napoleonic Era.....In particular, the Naval aspects all the way through the 1812 war and on through the Civil War. Considering I grew up up river from St. Louis and many times crossed the James Eads bridge (Pook's Turtles creator), I also have multiple interests. The point that I was making is this: None of us are going to convince folks who disagree with us that we MAY be right. Of course we MAY be wrong. Short of the proverbial time-machine, we may never know who's right and who's wrong.
If I might suggest something: If one wishes a musculata for Larp combat, get a leather musculata and rub-n-buff it.
If one wishes a metal musculata.....save up money and have Matt Luke make it for one.
BTW Martin, as a Navyman, I have to say, "Coasties" are all alright with me!
Salve,
Larry (Vitruvius) Mager
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I do not believe having a PhD or two make any difference to being able to state a valid argument. It is not really so that most on RAT will not except parallels to other era to be entered into a discussion, but when it comes to such an entrance being only made to agrue the existence of an object for which no archeological, iconographic or literal sources excist, it can be met with fierce criticism. Why, you may ask? Well, it comes down to the fact that in trying to unravel the past and portray it as realisticly as we can, we have met all kinds of wierd presumptions and inventions, many either stemming from Hollywood, literary and creative freedom of popular fiction being taken as fact or plain cheapness (substituting non-period materials for the sake of cutting cost). These have been hard to dispell and so we try to stop them taking hold before they fester and cloud the public image. The decorated leather curass or musculata of Maximus (Gladiator) re-sparks such a belief. As well as some guy prancing around in one at an event. And yes, it is much easier and cheaper to mold a leather musculata as opposed to beating one out of bronze plate. But when all is said and done, we have some (iconographic) proof of musculata being used in the Roman period (by senior officers and emperors) and of the ones found dating from before that period being made of metal, we have NO proof of them being made of any other material then metal.
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You said it better than I ever could, Robert!!!! Although, I am finding that pounding one out of mild steel is a lot easier for me, living in an apartment, than filling up the bathtub and soaking leather and trying to mold it in a large ,heavy mold. (Don't worry Matt Luke, I'm still going to have You make me one.LOL).
Gotta Scoot for now,
Salvete, Vitruvius.....aka Larry Mager
Larry A. Mager
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