Padded Armour

[Tarbicus]

[tlclark]

Would it be silly to suggest, bearing in mind the comments about padding and stresses on the shoulders and chest, to close the pattern so there is a complete hole, and when folded over it's long enough to double up on the chest?

Yeah, I think that would work. There's any number of patterns that might work.

Hope you don't mind me butchering your pic :?

Heck no! Jim you ARE the photoshop king.

In fact, you could have the 2 halves, left to right, the same (the left half without shoulder pteryges) and this would also give a double layer for the upper body?

OH this is great!! Jim can you do another one of these but put pteruges on both the front and the back? That way if gives you the doubled-up shoulder protection, the extra chest protection AND you have the double layer of pteruges as well. That way the double layer of pteruges is just a natural product of the way the subarmalis is worn.

Hey, could this work for the kilt too? Could the body just be a long rectangle wrapped twice around the body? Sounds crazy but who knows.

Any ideas, or am I crazy.

Travis

[Tarbicus]

It's a bit big, so RAT won't accept it, but it's worth seeing in the same scale as the others:

[url:3auqrv9s]http://hometown.aol.com/Tarbicus/subarmalis_pattern_tripled_3.jpg[/url]

Here's a smaller version

[tlclark]

It's a bit big, so RAT won't accept it, but it's worth seeing in the same scale as the others:

[url:q84mkhvt]http://hometown.aol.com/Tarbicus/subarmalis_pattern_tripled_3.jpg[/url]

Here's a smaller version

I can't believe how quick you did that!

Man, that's wild.

I don't know it might seem really ungainly but it would produce what we are seeing in the statuary.

Thanks Jim.


Travis

[Robert Vermaat]

Oh, great stuff.... Dimensions? Which to stick your head through first?

[adamparsons]

aawwww crap you guys, I was just going to suggest that and had been working on a drawing before you beat me to it! :oops:

I have added my section drawing anyway as it has some differences on the pteruges. could some of the linen linings actually be folded so they run down the front of one pteruges and the back face of the one in front- this will work even if they are offset (or staggered) from one another?

The bottom bit was just my ideas about using tablet woven braid (my girlfriend makes it) as an edging to simulate the binding, and also I have seen some with the binding with a funny chevron pattern on which is easy to emulate with tablet braid patterns. However if you say there is a definate edging front and back this may be no good!

Adam

[Tarbicus]

Here's another, which is a bit more sensible maybe:


The top layer of pteryges are long, theoretically giving more flexibility around the midriff, but keeping a full layer for the chest.

Vorti, put your head through the hole to the right, first. However, it's really down to personal preference and I don't think that would work for scalloped pteruges.

Note: I just modified it so the armhole flaps are easier to do.

[adamparsons]

I should point out that the only reason I have additional small pieces sewn in rather than wrap around is because it would be easier to make smaller bits of material on the looms, without having to resort to some of the larger looms we know existed. Not a major point and you could argue that maybe the size and expense was part of the point :? who knows?

Also with regard to why I suggested tablet braid- On Travis's page under images-
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/musculata3.htm
under the title Primaporta Augustus, (Vatican Museum) the top right picture, most looks like tablet braid round the border. But then again the fringes also look similar to the border here.

cheers
Adam

[tlclark]

Adam,

Brilliant stuff! don't feel bad at all, this is a big contribution.

The bottom bit was just my ideas about using tablet woven braid (my girlfriend makes it) as an edging to simulate the binding, and also I have seen some with the binding with a funny chevron pattern on which is easy to emulate with tablet braid patterns. However if you say there is a definate edging front and back this may be no good!

Adam

I think it is a sandwich arrangement with the fringe on the inside rather than on the backside as you have constructed it, but it's only my best guess of what we are seeing.

As far as tablet edging, that could be what we are seeing, although I think that it might be a tightly sewn embroidered edge as well. I just don't know.

I'm just glad we are generating this much interest.

Keep up the good work!

Travis

[John M McDermott]

Caballo raises an issue I have long thought about.

The solution is not in the subarmalis, though, but in the doubling of the hamata worn over the subarmalis. I have a hamata that has thick leather backing on the doubling. The effect is not unlike a set of football shoulder pads.

I am currently experimenting with doubling backed by rawhide.

[tlclark]

Working off Jim's latest pattern I had some thoughts.

It's important to recognize, I think, that the pteruges are there to protect the joints, the waist and shoulders, and not necessarily the upper arms and thighs. I really do think the pteruges exist to allow flexibility.

for example here.



If the subarmalis sticks too far below the waist and too far over the shoulders, it can restrict mobility.



In this example the flex points are covered by layers of pteruges, which would allow more movement.

I have looked at a lot of loricatae and the subarmalis can never be seen poking out under the cuirass or shoulders. I think that's because the ptergues are meant to run pretty far back under the armor to where the joint starts.

Travis

[Robert Vermaat]

I have added my section drawing anyway as it has some differences on the pteruges.

Adam, somehow the large picture won't open...
Great stuff!

[tlclark]

Caballo raises an issue I have long thought about.

The solution is not in the subarmalis, though, but in the doubling of the hamata worn over the subarmalis. I have a hamata that has thick leather backing on the doubling. The effect is not unlike a set of football shoulder pads.

I am currently experimenting with doubling backed by rawhide.

So the doubling itself is padded and re-inforced with rawhide over the top of the existing hamata?

Travis

[Tarbicus]

I am currently experimenting with doubling backed by rawhide.

John, how thick is your rawhide?

[adamparsons]

yeah I can't open it either! I have tried reattaching it but to no avail. any one have any ideas why- its isn't too big and its only a .jpg?

Adam