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Plumbata
Can someone quickly check this article for me?

Ludwig Vanden Berghe: Some Roman military equipment of the first three centuries AD in Belgian museums (JRMES 7, 1996), pp. 59-95.

My thanks!
Robert Vermaat
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FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Why is the size/weight of the dart important? If the same dart is used to test both overarm and underarm throws then it should be irrelevant. All we need to know is which technique has the greater range. Unless it can be shown that overarm throws work better for some darts and underarm for others.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen & Sword Books
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Robert,
I'll be at home this afternoon and I've got all JRMES. Was there any plumbata on that paper? I cannot remember it... :? roll: )

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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Hi Robert,

I will check it too (this evening), but IIRC there weren't any plumbata in that paper (or even in Belgium for that part. I did a survey of the literature most likely to have reported plumbata findings and I asked the most important museums here, but no plumbata turned up).

Hans
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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Quote:Why is the size/weight of the dart important? If the same dart is used to test both overarm and underarm throws then it should be irrelevant. All we need to know is which technique has the greater range. Unless it can be shown that overarm throws work better for some darts and underarm for others.

Which is why we need to get testing. There has been testing which is published, but the ranges achieved in those tests have been shattered by unpublished tests. So far, I haven't been able to determine why that is. Lenght of the shaft? Dimensions of fletches? Weight? Throwing technique?

Underarm still seems to be the most effective technique.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Reply
@ Hans & Aitor,

Thanks mates, I'm not sure if anything like a plumbata was mentioned in that article, but it was referred to in an article about plumbatae.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
Robert,
I've checked the paper (not read it in detail, though) and no plumbata appeared on it... Sad

Aitor
It\'s all an accident, an accident of hands. Mine, others, all without mind, from one extreme to another, but neither works nor will ever.

Rolf Steiner
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OK, well, thanks for checking that anyway. It was worth a try, although now I'm completely mystified why it was used as a reference.... :roll:
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
Reply
Hi Robert,

Well I took a look at the article also, but just like Aitor didn't find anything on plumbatae. Just one weaponpoint in the article has barbs (no weight though), but is described as a flat triangular barbed socketed arrowhead, 80 mm long.

Did the reference point to a specific page of the article or just the article in general?

There is a student at the KULeuven who is making his yearwork on 'spearpoints', perhaps he knows of any plumbata in Belgium. Just give me a PM if you want his e-mail address.

Greets,

Hans
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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Quote: Just one weaponpoint in the article has barbs (no weight though), but is described as a flat triangular barbed socketed arrowhead, 80 mm long.
That could be it, most plumbtatae point are longer but I have several in my database that are shorter. Could you send a scan of the thing to fectioAThotmail.com please?

Quote:Did the reference point to a specific page of the article or just the article in general?
Just the article in general. It could be based on someone else's wrong identification, I've seen that happen before. There is, for instance, the 'Carvoran plumbata' which is a gaesum or something similar, but it keeps being cited. Of course I checked with the museum. Neither is there a publication about this item as a plumbata.

Quote:There is a student at the KULeuven who is making his yearwork on 'spearpoints', perhaps he knows of any plumbata in Belgium. Just give me a PM if you want his e-mail address.
Absolutely. Could you send it with the scan, or else in a PM?

Thanks for the help!
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Hi Robert,

I'll do it this evening (if I don't forget).

Hans
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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Thanks!

So far, the number of plumbatae from the western provinces is lagging behind. The Balkan (of course?) sees new find after new find (though unfortunately through internet sales). This is normal since the Balkan is where the plumbata seems to originate as a military object, and where it may have been used well into Byzantine times. I know 47 locations in the Eastern part of the Empire, to which can be added 15 ‘unsure’ ones.

I would expect far fewer finds from the western provinces, even though troop rotations would mean the use of the plumbata with Eastern units possible in the West too. So far, none have turned in Belgium, The Netherlands, Portugal or Spain. I know 4 from Germany (though that number may grow), 7 from France, 1 from western Italy, 3 from western Austria, 3 from Switzerland, 1 from Liechtenstein.

But 26 from Britain – and that’s the big surprise. So far, the highest number for a country, for a diocese even.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Does anybody have this book:

Christopher Unz and Eckhard Deschler-Erb (1997): Katalog der Militaria aus Vindonissa.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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No, but I'm going to a library on monday where I know they have it. I will look for plumbatae for you.

Hans
Flandria me genuit, tenet nunc Roma
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Thanks!
I can suggest page 23, cat. nrs 334-335...
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
[Image: artgroepbutton.jpg]
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