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Plumbata
Vortigern (and others),

Really interesting- what diameter are you seeing for the shafts of the plumbatae?

Cheers

Caballo
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aka Paul B, moderator
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My first attempt- based on a Comitatus Wroxeter plumbata heads to which I added the remainder of a broken arrow (plus a fire arrow I also made up today).
[Image: IMG_2883.jpg]
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aka Paul B, moderator
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Splitting a rod into three is no simple matter. Is that how you did the fire arrow? Or did you add rods onto the socket?

Is there something inside the lead weight (presumably extending outwards from the shaft) to prevent the weight shifting forward when it hits something hard?

Nice work, no matter how you got there.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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Should have made it clear- the forging work was done by Hector Cole for the fire arrow, and yes, its built up on rods.

The plumbata lead is fused by heat to the metal shaft- again, all the credit here goes to the Comitatus blacksmith.

Cheers

Caballo
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aka Paul B, moderator
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I like the Comitatus' plumbatae, but I should mention that only very few of the hundred-odd plumbtae known to me have a lead weight that is added to the metal shaft (being the odd one from Olympia with the square weight and the two very narrow-shaped ones from Sisak). By far the most plumbatae show the lead weight on the junction of metal and wood.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Comitatus use their plumbata and breakages are very very common. This design is very easy to repair, and is based on one of the finds from Wroxeter. PM me and I can send you photographs. The majority of finds with the lead in situ are as Robert describes. But Wroxeter is well known in the UK, and the find suits our needs admirably.

Our blacksmith is a patient man who still smiles when we return something which is the wrong size, weight or shape.

Currently there are many different designs of dart on the market available for sale. Could someone tell me on what finds they are all based?
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

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Is there enough room on the shaft, aft of the flights, to get a good grip for throwing?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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Yes, there is. Though of course, it's the wooden componant of the weapon that is the guesswork.But your grip could extend over the flights. You shouldn't be scared of damaging the flights since you're not expecting to get the weapon back.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
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Hi John,

Quote:This design is very easy to repair, and is based on one of the finds from Wroxeter. PM me and I can send you photographs. The majority of finds with the lead in situ are as Robert describes. But Wroxeter is well known in the UK, and the find suits our needs admirably.

Please send me those images! I know all of the 'Wroxeter Nine' (see below), but I lack an image of the ninth one. There even is a tenth one, but this seems to be just the lead weight.

[Image: plumbata33.jpg]

So far all of the plumbata produced commercially seem to be of the Burgh castle 'tanged' type. The Wroxeter finds, even though it's not established if tanged or socketed, all have their lead weight on the joint between metal and wood. So if the Comitatus plumbatae are based on a Wroxeter find, I'd sure like to see that one. Big Grin
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Blimey, you are forcing me to understand technology. I'll try and post a picture here.
[attachment=1:qv05ty2h]<!-- ia1 Wroxeter group plumbatum.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:qv05ty2h]

It doesn't seem to match any of the drawings you have posted. We sometimes cut the shafts slightly to help hold the lead in place. You can see a similar nick in the shaft.

These are currently on public display at Wroxeter.
[attachment=0:qv05ty2h]<!-- ia0 Wroxeter plumbata.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:qv05ty2h]
These too are hard to match with your drawings. Maybe the middle example equates to no 4.

A lead weight seemingly from a dart was picked up from the Wroxeter vineyard not so long ago.

Surely with the numbers found, manufacturers could actually reproduce a specific find?
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Quote: Blimey, you are forcing me to understand technology. I'll try and post a picture here.
It doesn't seem to match any of the drawings you have posted. We sometimes cut the shafts slightly to help hold the lead in place. You can see a similar nick in the shaft.
Don't mention it John. Big Grin
Thanks for the images! This is number one, you can see similar 'cuts' in the lead and a 'circular-like' (someone once thought it was a nail) object on the head.

It seems like a socketed version indeed, and what the drawings do not show, a socket that ends below the lead weight. Now, I still have doubts about your interpretation, because from this image it is still unclear to me whether the lead was added to the shaft or whether the weight 'moved up the shaft' under impact. The second plumbata from Cearwent did something like that - it ended up at the barbed head!
[Image: plumbata34.jpg]

Quote:These too are hard to match with your drawings. Maybe the middle example equates to no 4.
Number one on top, number four in the midddle, the bottom one may be number nine of which I have no picture. Could you please send me larger versions of the images?

Quote:A lead weight seemingly from a dart was picked up from the Wroxeter vineyard not so long ago.
That would be number ten, to which I was alerted just after the find back in 2005 I think it was, by Roger White. He meant to publish about it but so far I've seen nothing yet..
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Good evening,

Frankly the drawings aren't great. I would discount them and go for the actual artefact. I'm pleased you agree the socket lies above the lead weight.

As for the lead having slipped down the shaft on impact, well there is of course no evidence that it was ever thrown. The dart is in excellent condition, and the lead is still tight on the shaft. Your presumed "slippage" on the dart from Caerwent is more likely due to the corosion of the iron shaft allowing the lead to move freely along it.

Reproduction darts are used regularly, and I've never yet seen the lead weight come away from the iron shaft and slip downwards towards the point. Perhaps this happens with commercially made plumbata :lol:

The lead weight discovered recently in the vineyard was picked up not by Roger White, but by another. It may be possible to send photos of, but PM your address. But please be patient with me, I'm busy to the point of giving up sleep. Cry
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Quote:Frankly the drawings aren't great. I would discount them and go for the actual artefact. I'm pleased you agree the socket lies above the lead weight.
I have better pictures, but this drawing was the only one of the (almost) complete Wroxeter family. :wink:
Yes, looking at other b&w images of Wroxeter I convinces me more and more that you are right - especially since the lower diameter of the weight is roughly the same as that of the socket. But I'd still like to see the a better image of the original, since frankly it would mean that Wroxeter I is different from the mass of plumbatae found in these parts so far.

Quote:As for the lead having slipped down the shaft on impact, well there is of course no evidence that it was ever thrown. The dart is in excellent condition, and the lead is still tight on the shaft. Your presumed "slippage" on the dart from Caerwent is more likely due to the corosion of the iron shaft allowing the lead to move freely along it.
Indeed we can't tell if it was thrown or not, but plumbatae would hardly crumple on impact so it might well be. Of course you could be correct about the Caerwent plumbata, but it seems far less likely to me - corrosion would lead sooner to the shafte breaking off than to the weight slipping over the (presumably) barbed head. Whereas it could happen on impact I presume. I never had that happen to one of my 'commercial' plumbatae or my own.

Quote:The lead weight discovered recently in the vineyard was picked up not by Roger White, but by another. It may be possible to send photos of, but PM your address. But please be patient with me, I'm busy to the point of giving up sleep. Cry
I never presumed that Roger found it, and indeed he mentioned that it was a private find (but not much more, alas).
I'll send you the email address again.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
Reply
Robert, I sense a pained feeling, and I don't want to upset you. Hopefully you've got my photos by now, and can view these darts in detail.

I appreciate you and many others find plumbata fascinating. I fear I'm not one of them.

As I'm sure you appreciate just where the lead weight was placed on the shaft of socketed plumbata can be very hard to determine. In many cases only the shaft is found, or just the lead weight. I suspect there were in fact more than the two you mention, as well as this example. I'm sure they were in the minority, but they suit our modern needs very well.

My only fear is that Caballo is peppering Richmond upon Thames with them.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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The plumbata seem ok in Richmond.

The fire arrow though may cause a few problems.......... :roll:
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aka Paul B, moderator
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