Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[barcid]

some punic scarabs showing differant armour types 5th & 4th cent. BC ,one looks quilted

[MeinPanzer]

Those just look like decorated tunics to me, though I can't make out too much detail.

[barcid]

well Ruben maybe, I think one may be eastern Med.Phoenician quited armour the rest i think are depicting something else ,these are finds from Ibeza ,its hard to blow them up without them turning to lego men ,copy them & have a closer look on your pc ,perhaps something along the lines of the #51 Phoenician marine & this guy is it a cape or skin (spolas) ,

[Dan Howard]

well Ruben maybe, I think one may be eastern Med.Phoenician quited armour the rest i think are depicting something else

Or you have the same thing depicted by a different artist. Illustrations aren't anywhere near as useful as people think.

[barcid]

well Ruben maybe, I think one may be eastern Med.Phoenician quited armour the rest i think are depicting something else

Or you have the same thing depicted by a different artist. Illustrations aren't anywhere near as useful as people think.

Thats a thought ! :? wink: sadly not much written regarding Punic arms 4th. cent bc & earlier bar referance to the Sacred band and thats pretty thin :roll: ,so ive been collecting punic art images to try to get a few ideas...... images of Etruscan Quilted armour interest me also.......& Dan where could i find more images of your Impressive Kit. Thanks Dave.

[Dan Howard]

Dan where could i find more images of your Impressive Kit.

Nathan at MyArmoury asked me to start a thread about it
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8942

[barcid]

Dan where could i find more images of your Impressive Kit.

Nathan at MyArmoury asked me to start a thread about it
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=8942

Thanks Mate .would love to see it first hand if im ever in your part of Oz .Sorry to digress folks.

[Paullus Scipio]

At any rate, it would be possible that all a spola is is a pair of skins worn as a garment hanging from the shoulder, but I can make the opposite argument and say "that's how it started" but as the tube-and yoke came into being, it got the name "spola." for fairly obvious reasons.

Here is the LJ entry for Spola and Stole, which appear to be the same word in different dialects. Has this been discussed before? because Stole is a very interesting word. See the following...

stol-ê , hê, Aeol. spola (q.v.): ( [stellô] ):--

A. equipment, fitting out, stratou A.Supp.764 .

2. armament, Id.Pers.1018 (lyr.).

II. equipment in clothes, raiment, ib.192; schêma Hellados s. S.Ph.224, cf. E.Heracl.130; hippada stolên enestalmenoi Hdt.1.80 ; s. hippikê Ar.Ec.846 ; Skuthikê Hdt.4.78 ; Thrêikia E.Rh.313 ; Mêdikê X.Cyr.8.1.40 ; gunaikeia Ar.Th.851 , cf. 92; toxikê Pl.Lg.833b ; stolên echein ên am boulêtai SIG1003.14 (Priene, ii B.C.): metaph. of birds, s. pterôn Ach.Tat.1.15 .

2. garment, robe, S.OC1357,1597, PCair.Zen.54.32 (pl.), 263.4,8 (iii B.C.), BGU1860.4 (i B.C.), etc.; s. thêros, of the lion's skin which Heracles wore, E.HF465; en s. peripatein in full dress, M.Ant.1.7 (v.l. -liôi ap.Suid.), cf. Ev.Marc.12.38.

3. act of dressing, meta tên s. Orib.Syn.5.21.

Red emphasis is mine...

Indeed there is support, ancient and modern for this, and I too subscribe to the idea that the word originated with the word for 'skin' garment, then 'leather', and finally a 'leather' Tube-and-Yoke, which is what Xenophon seems to say. One should note that the skin of the Nemean Lion, worn by Herakles, was also his 'armour' which made him invulnerable, because the pelt was completely weapon-proof.

This has been posted before, but is worth repeating. Pollux' Onomastikon is NOT the only ancient lexicon which refers to 'spolas'. There is also this:

Hesychios lexicon (sigma 1542)

spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos; ho bursinos thorax

"little thick leathern chiton; the leathern thorax"
(skutinos= animal skin generally; bursinos = dressed leather, or alum tawed - the root is connected to shoemaking)

....which goes to show that the word referred originally to "skin/leather garment", and later came to mean "leather T-and-Y corselet/body armour".

Connected to this is the fact that 'stolas'/'spolas' are Attic/Doric dialects of the same word ( originally from the root 'stello' = garment). Interestingly, Xenophon, writing in Attic dialect, uses the Doric form 'spolas' when referring to Greek body armour, implying perhaps that the Doric form of the word was used to specifically refer to body armour as opposed to the more general Attic form 'stolas' for "leather garment"?

Apparently there are many examples for the use of a general term from one dialect for a specific item in another.

P.S.: trivia point: in modern English ( doubtless derived from the Greek) 'stole' means:
1. a garment of (usually) fur/animal skin worn over the shoulders ( like the 'Tube' of a 'Tube-and-Yoke')
2. a narrow cloth strip worn over the shoulders by priests/clergy during a service.

[Dan Howard]

spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos; ho bursinos thorax

"little thick leathern chiton; the leathern thorax"
(skutinos= animal skin generally; bursinos = dressed leather, or alum tawed - the root is connected to shoemaking)

....which goes to show that the word referred originally to "skin/leather garment", and later came to mean "leather T-and-Y corselet/body armour".

I don't think one can be that conclusive. It certainly refers to leather armour but it could be T-Y or scale or lamellar or something else. The only physical evidence of leather we have so far is Macedonian scale and all of the relevant illustrations are ambiguous.

[John Conyard]

I'm very interested in the reference to shoe making.

spolas: khitoniskos bathus skutinos; ho bursinos thorax

]little thick leathern chiton; the leathern thorax"
(skutinos= animal skin generally; bursinos = dressed leather, or alum tawed - the root is connected to shoemaking)

Why is shoe making connected to alum tawed leather? Would not other tanning methods be more appropriate for shoe making? Am I missing something here? If it has something to do with shoe making are we not just looking at vegetable tanned leather?

I've spent a two days in a vegetable tanned thick leather tube and yoke. The pteruges ensured I couldn't sit down. Too stiff. I suspect they would soften with time. Perhaps.

[PMBardunias]

Why is shoe making connected to alum tawed leather? Would not other tanning methods be more appropriate for shoe making? Am I missing something here? If it has something to do with shoe making are we not just looking at vegetable tanned leather?

I don't know why, since tawed leather would seem innapropriate for something that will be repeatedly wetted, but there is a link to alum tawed leather and famous shoe leather from spain. You'll have to search, because I am drawing from memeory here, but it may have been called "Moroccan" leather and was red as I recall. Perhaps this was a composite tanned leather and the alum was used to make it creamy white for later dyeing.

[Paullus Scipio]

If I recall correctly, when Kineas mentioned that Alum tawed ( or composite tawed/tanned?) leather was one of Athens larger industries, he referred to white shoes.....perhaps he would be kind enough to elaborate a little here.... D

[John Conyard]

Shoe making.......think sole leather.....armour.....?

[PMBardunias]

The tawed leather was called "Cordovan"- which makes me think of Ricardo Montalban.

Here's a link to burgundian shoes that mentions it:
http://atelierlalonde.com/World/SCA/shoe.html

From Roman times articles such as shoes and gloves were made from tawed skins (in latin aluta). Tawed leather is delicate and easily dyed, and was used when the shoes and gloves were more for show than hard wear [Ibid, p. 20]. This tradition continued through much of the middle ages.

As early as the 9th century the Spanish city of Cordoba was renouned for the bright red tawed skins produced there. The French word for shoe-maker, cordonier is derived from the old French form cordouanier, refering to the cordovan leather.



Mineral Tanning
The first mineral process used, dating back to ancient Egypt and Babylonia, is the alum process. Skins are soaked in a solution of alum and salt and the resulting leather is a pure white colour. The alum and salt will, however, wash out in water, and the leather must be further processed, according to the application, to avoid this kind of damage [Waterer 1971, pp. 23-24]. The process of preparing leather using the alum process is called tawing. Alum tawed leather is also very easy to dye in bright colours, alum being a mordant.

[PMBardunias]

If the Tube and Yoke was Alum tawed, I wonder if there was any connection between its rise and the manufacture of parchment for scrolls. Anyone know anything about parchment?