Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[Dan Howard]

There are period references to Cordovan leather and implications that it makes superior armour but I was under the impression that nobody really knew what Cordovan leather actually was. Whether it was taken from a particular part of an animal or whether it was tanned differently. Is there a period source that tells us how Cordovan leather was made? I've seen speculation in modern texts but nothing to back it up.

[Paullus Scipio]

Completely off-topic Trivia of the day !
Paul B. wrote:

As early as the 9th century the Spanish city of Cordoba was renouned for the bright red tawed skins produced there. The French word for shoe-maker, cordonier is derived from the old French form cordouanier, refering to the cordovan leather.

....whence comes the English word 'cordwainer', meaning a shoemaker. A 'cobbler' was originally a mere repairer of shoes, and not admissible to the Cordwainer's Guild ( which may still exist).....

[John Conyard]

The Cordwainer's Guild is still going strong in York, and they share a hall with other Guilds in the city. I've organised banquets in the hall.

I promise to spend some time looking at leather tanning and the possible use of leather for armour. And I promise to report back. There is a great deal to consider.

For example milk could be used in leather preparation to produce a white finish, and milk can also be used to laminate leather panels.

Perhaps a conflicting line of enquiry is that leather from areas using alum in tanning was used to make shields in Egypt in a later period. Later Arab armours may have something to teach us in terms of leather preparation.

My initial feeling is that laminated, "buff" leather, would make the ideal armour. It would be strong, relatively soft, and require no special treatments like heating, moulding or lacquering. It could be easily weather proofed, produce a stiff yoke which could stand upright, and be produced naturally in off white. Or any other colour!

But this does sound like a simple 17th century solution.

[Kineas]

While we're all on this topic again, I'd like to be a heretic and propose that the yoke shoulders do not, in fact, have to stand upright.

Consider the well known tondo of Achilles tending to Patrokles arrow wound.



Note Patrokles shoulder is up.

Also note that the cord or thong for his shoulder is ALSO up--in a nice lazy curl over his head.
Just been reading Bundrick's really excellent article "The Fabric of the City" in Hesperia 77 and although her article is about women and weaving, her analysis of vase illustrations is cogent. In effect, she reminds us that they are not photographs and that in many cases they describe a complete action, not a moment of action. Following her line of reasoning, the artist may simply want you to understand that Patrokles has his shoulder folded back, but lacks the image angle to depict what it really looks like. The clue would be the thong, which would never, of course, stand up in the air. In other words, we might wonder if the whole thing isn't behind his back, out of the picture--but the artist put it there to show us that it had been loosened.

I only brng this up because last night, as I was getting my plates and scales together for a photo, Joe Piela (the armorer) said, "How heavy is the leather going to be?" and I showed him (two layers of 14 oz cowhide) and we flexed it and agreed that, despite being heavier and stiffer than a shoe sole, it wouldn't stand up with the weight fo the 24 guage (that's LIGHT) scales for more than a week or two. Shortly after that, it would soften and fold over--every time. In fact, I'll have to be careful to keep it from cracking over year's of use.

After some talk, we felt (and this IS assertion, no experiment yet" that there was any weight of TANNED leather that would hold the scales and stand upright.

Rigid tawed leather, on the other hand, wouldn't flex back to start with.

So--Joe and I are now questioning the received wisdom that the shoulders actually stand up. It makes sense on those tube and yoke armors--and I can make a leather or a linen version with shoulders that stand up--well, mostly stand up--but as soon as you load them with scales, you have to ask--is this artistic convention? Is this really a depiction of reality? And if it is reality, why does the thong stand up too?

And just for fun, here are my chest plates with about 1/3 of my scales.

[ARudling]

or the picture could be showing the shoulder flaps are stiff & have sprung back upright & the cord is cought in the instant of whipping back .....

Nice scales so far ! Keep up the good work

[Dan Howard]

As said before, layered linen will be rigid and springy if quilted properly even if reinforced with scales. I agree that the illustration could easily be showing the cord in motion while the flap is spinging back up. FWIW scale reinforcements will not allow the shoulder flap to fold behind the back out of the way. They won't flex in that direction unless you remove a couple of rows of scales somewhere at the back of the shoulder and insert some sort of construction that acts like a hinge.

[PMBardunias]

My initial feeling is that laminated, "buff" leather, would make the ideal armour.

This is something that troubles me with the leather option. Why doesn't it just look like a vest or jacket like so many other leather armours? The same is true of quilted armour unless the stiching is very dense.

It seems to me that a design like the T-Y arose because the material was very stiff.

[Kineas]

I agree that the illustration could easily be showing the cord in motion while the flap is spinging back up.

So, you'd support that notion even though Achilles has loosened the flap and gotten on with working on the arm?

Come on!

I don't mean to be dogmatic about this, but you should agree that if it is represented the same way with or without scales, it is merely a convention, not a point of realism, and the cord standing in the air proves it.

All I wish to say, and I will keep saying this, is that we KNOW virtually NOTHING about the T+Y armors. We can say "perhaps the shoulder armor stood up straight". But we don't know that it did. Looks at their conventions for the depiction of running animals, if you want an example of how far from "realism" Greek art could be.

Dan, I'm sorry to be your nay-sayer, but I can make a scale shirt where the whole shoulder thing hangs behind the back. On sheepskin, exactly like the Altai Scythic finds. The scales won't interfere with the hang very much at all. Why do you think otherwise? Scales are applied in rows, and the area between the rows will, in fact, act as a leather hinge on softer leathers.
Do you have evidence for your assertion?? Or do you mean you own one or two and they won't hang that way? Perhaps Roman shirts with 4, 6 or 9 holes? Different item altogether, I think.

[John Conyard]

Well there are certainly several illustrations showing "stiff" shoulder pieces. Possibily not all due to artistic convention.

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I have various bits of scale armour. It's something I'm familiar with. I think some treated leather, especially laminated, would stand upright even with the added weight of scales. But the leather may "soften" over time. It comes down to guessing how the leather would be treated. Currently my pteruges are so stiff I can't sit down. And this gentlemen is a major design fault.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Here I must remind you Christian of your own words,vases are not photos! I don't find the cord of great significance,especially when there are other vases which show the shoulder guard up and the cord straight down.
Now to be fair,there are one or two vases I know of that don't show the shoulder guards straight up but somewhat to the side,which could be translated as softer matterial. There are far more though that show the flap straight. It can't be a coincidence.
Dan has a point about the scales not letting the matterial bent backwards. If it was just a little stiff,it wouldn't bent. If it had to bent,it would bent to the front. Also remember, the only example of greek scales ever found in mainland greece are those tiny ones on the gorget from Derveni. They have three or six holes. Three are visible in the top row,but i don't know if they are covered from the leather hem.

Another indication of the stiffness and nature of the matterial is the fact that when stored the linothorax was tied like when worn. It is shown some times in vases being carried like that,maintaining its shape. It also means that even though stored with the shoulder pieces tied down,they could stand up or even fall back when untied.
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

John,why don't you post a photo of your leather T&Y. Are you sure you made the pteryges short enough?
Khaire
Giannis

[John Conyard]

Giannis, I can just about post photos on this site. So here goes.

The tube is pretty tough, and the pteruges are double layered so they are stiff. The tube also has a double front. The yoke is relatively thin and needs another layer of leather at least. But it was very quick to make and I always thought I could add to the yoke.

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[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks for posting. It looks nice. I do think you could have the pteryges shorter,which would make bending and sitting easier. I had to shorten mine. Genitals ought to be NOT covered. The pteryges were a cutout of the lower thorax,not an extension of the thorax.
In the way you made it,the pteryges are double layer only in the front?
Khaire
Giannis

[John Conyard]

The pteruges do stop above the certain important areas........

But they could be shorter. There is a double layer all the way around the bottom of the tube. I want them to comfortably sit over my thighs when on a horse. And not stick in the animal. The lion's head on the front is an old door knocker, which I've silver foiled.

It was knocked up in a few days, and I've always thought of it as a prototype. I used inks, paints and dyes on the leather to see how they would take and last.

I'm tempted to add a copper alloy plate to the inner front of the tube for greater strengh below the sternum. It would be easy to do, and turn it into a real composite cuirass.

As these things go it will probably never be changed, and stay in service for years.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:

It seems to me that a design like the T-Y arose because the material was very stiff.

....I suspect that is an over-simplification. The stiffness is likely to be because more than one layer of leather was used ( assuming leather in the first place! ). Recall that in 17C Buff coats which were 'double layer', it was generally only the body which was 'doubled', with sleeves etc left single for ease of movement.
One should also consider other design factors too. Like the 'lorica segmentata' of Rome, the design was optimised to provide protection to the shoulders, logically enough considering the shield offered primary protection to the body from frontal blows, but a spear used overhand might strike a blow over the rim at the shoulder area. In addition, downward hacks with a sword/machaira would be a frequent type of blow in a close press. In addition, any blows from spear/sword which glanced off a helmet would most likely be deflected into the shoulder area...... no surprise that the shoulders were obviously considered a vulnerable area needing special protection, hence the 'yoke'. Add to this the basic simplicity of 'Tube-and-Yoke' and it is no surprise that the design was a popular one for so long, and spread beyond the Greek world......

John Conyard wrote:

The pteruges do stop above the certain important areas........

But they could be shorter. There is a double layer all the way around the bottom of the tube. I want them to comfortably sit over my thighs when on a horse.

You are surely right about this. On the face of it one might wonder why the obviously stiff pteryges do not extend to cover the lower abdomen as for example later Roman ones did, which were clearly softer. A comparison of your photo and vase depictions - even just those posted here - suggests yours are over-long, and need to shortened, especially perhaps for mounted work. Perhaps the originals were this short to facilitate sitting, but it should be borne in mind that like modern Asians, the ancient Greeks were more used to squatting or camp stools, being less accustomed to chairs than us 'moderns' . ( before anyone picks up the point, yes, there is plenty of evidence that Classical Greeks used chairs - but not to the extent we do)