Linothorax vs Quilted linen vs spolas

[john m roberts]

This is also the only depiction I know of which shows the infamous forearm-guards in use. Photos I've seen of this fresco show it in a very deteriorated condition. How much of this reconstruction is conjectural?

[caiusbeerquitius]

If you click on the link below the picture you may find out for yourself. ^^


Something else:
We have one of the very, very few traditional tanneries left here in Augsburg. I was there to pick something up today, and asked the tanner about the qualities of thick rawhide-like alumn-tanned leather, and whether it was at all possible to make something which has the armour-quality of rawhide, but the advantage of being "weatherproof" like leather would be. He said he thinks it is possible and would start an experimental production of 2 cattle hides. This may take a few weeks, though. He´s doing it for free, but any donations are welcome. If you want to share in this project, please contact me.
If it works out, he´s going to produce this stuff in one large go of at least 10 hides, if enough orders come together.
If you are interested, please also let me know, I´ll make a list then, and place the order.

[nikolaos]

Christian,

That is way cool in an extremely way cool kind of way. I can make a small contribution to the cause and am deeply interested in the results...

Let me know how I can do the former, and I look forward to the latter.

Have fun!
Cole

[John Conyard]

This does sound very interesting. Rawhide armour would be very tough.

Does the rawhide need to be weather proofed? My experiance of using it is limited. I have a McClellan saddle from WWI which is covered in it. And it's still going strong. But I am aware that some McClellan's were also covered in leather to protect the rawhide from the weather.

But I do have a cowskin two man coracle made back in 2004. The hide was socked in a saline solution for ten days before been sewn over the wooden frame - in effect rawhide but with the hair still on it. The rawhide shrinks onto the frame. Coated in lanolin once a year, it is water proof. If it goes in the water every day for a week you can feel it getting softer, but other wise it's fine. This rawhide is designed to be immersed.

But if I had a yoke made of rawhide, and tried fastening down at the front, I have a suspition the rawhide wouldn't allow me to do it, or just may crack. When it's moulded and dried out it does not allow for flexibilty. Perhaps your project to could the validity of this.

I fear I may be sold on the idea of glued laminated leather. Leather thickness or quality wouldn't be an issue. Just add more leather to the required thickness. Goat or cow could be used. The leather could be stuck together by it's own gelatins as done in India, or by dairy glues as in Europe to produce a stiff cuirass, but one with some flexibility.

[PMBardunias]

But if I had a yoke made of rawhide, and tried fastening down at the front, I have a suspition the rawhide wouldn't allow me to do it, or just may crack. When it's moulded and dried out it does not allow for flexibilty. Perhaps your project to could the validity of this.

The Alum tawing makes it less brittle than rawhide, yet still retaining stiffness. I'm very excited to see the properties of the finished product.

[caiusbeerquitius]

I can make a small contribution to the cause and am deeply interested in the results...

Hey, that´s great! the project means two days of work for a craftsman of a dying craft, who already has to struggle to keep his craft alive by earning at least some money. That´s very generous and kind. I sent you a pm

Anyone else who contributes will also get a small sample of the result via mail, of course.

[PMBardunias]

For my own peace of mind, does anyone know if specifically Alum-tawed leather had been suggested for the construction of a Tube and Yoke before I did so on this forum? If I did come up with it, then perhaps I will write up something about it. Christian, if you are planning to write up something about the properties of the tawed leather, perhaps I can help with some background information. If not I'd welcome your help on any article I write.

[John Conyard]

I think pre Connolly, the leather cuirass idea must have been common. Richard Nelson's WRG book, writen in 1975, makes much mention of leather. But I was only little and perhaps others older and wiser than me can elucidate.

But I am not satisfied we are being clear about the various types of leather. We are, like many archaeologists, using the word leather loosely. This is from the world wide web:-

Alum-tanned leather is tanned using aluminium salts mixed with a variety of binders and protein sources, such as flour, egg yolk, etc. Purists argue that alum-tanned leather is technically "tawed" and not tanned, as the resulting material will rot in water. Very light shades of leather are possible using this process, but the resulting material is not as supple as vegetable-tanned leather.

Rawhide is made by scraping the skin thin, soaking it in lime, and then stretching it while it dries. Like alum-tanning, rawhide is not technically "leather", but is usually lumped in with the other forms. Rawhide is stiffer and more brittle than other forms of leather, and is primarily found in uses such as drum heads where it does not need to flex significantly; it is also cut up into cords for use in lacing or stitching, or for making many varieties of dog chews.

Vegetable-tanned leather is tanned using tannin and other ingredients found in vegetable matter, tree bark, and other such sources. It is supple and brown in color, with the exact shade depending on the mix of chemicals and the color of the skin. It is the only form of leather suitable for use in leather carving or stamping. Vegetable-tanned leather is not stable in water; it tends to discolor, and if left to soak and then dry it will shrink and become less supple and harder. In hot water, it will shrink drastically and partly gelatinize, becoming rigid and eventually brittle. Boiled leather is an example of this where the leather has been hardened by being immersed in hot water, or in boiled wax or similar substances. Historically, it was occasionally used as armor after hardening, and it has also been used for book binding.

I tie my colours to the mast of laminated vegetable-tanned leather. We know it was rigid, it was used for armour, and it was readily available. But I'm happy to be convinced otherwise.

[caiusbeerquitius]

If not I'd welcome your help on any article I write.

Yeah! Writing sthg together is so much better!

[PMBardunias]

but the resulting material is not as supple as vegetable-tanned leather.

Tawed leather can be creamy soft. The trick is that you have to beat the crap out of it and work it for a long time. You can also wash out some of the alum and render it progressively more like rawhide. For sheer range of stiffness/softness Alum tawing is great.

[John Conyard]

Tawed leather, like every other leather, can be rendered flexible or rigid. I don't see that as a valid point.

The use of vegetable tanned leather as armour is well atested. Easy to make with basic materials. No moulds would be neccessary.

I suspect, but don't know, that rawhide when wet could be flaked, moulded, and turned into ornate leather which would be lacquered. All very eastern.

Are there examples of tawed leather used as armour? There may well be, I'd like to know.

Sorry if I seem to be playing Devils advocate. It's not intended.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Rawhide is stiffer and more brittle than other forms of leather

I´ve been working a lot with rawhide. Stiff, yes, very, but brittle? No way.

[PMBardunias]

Tawed leather, like every other leather, can be rendered flexible or rigid. I don't see that as a valid point.

Ummm...that was my point. You said tawed leather was not as supple. There is a long history of alum tawing in the mediterranean, but a specific use as armor I do not know.

[John Conyard]

Vegetable tanned leather is supple, but thick skins are not very supple, and when heated to be made into armour it is rigid. And when laminated and glued it is rigid. Milk could be used in leather preparation to produce a white finish, and milk can also be used to laminate leather panels. Alum could be used to white it, as already pointed out by Kineas. It just seems so easy to associate it with armour. Leather from areas using alum in tanning was used to make shields in Egypt.

But was the alum used to help tan the leather? (My choice)

Or was the alum used to taw the leather?

[Paullus Scipio]

John C. wrote"

Leather from areas using alum in tanning was used to make shields in Egypt.

.....that's interesting, John. Christian/Kineas has pointed out that Athens had a major alum-tawing/leather industry c. 500 BC, and that white shoes made from this were common ( I'm curious as to his source for this).

Earlier writers ( pre-Connolly ) used to opine that the Greek Tube-and-Yoke was 'leather' without specifying the type, with an outside chance that it was 'linen' ( e.g. Snodgrass 1960's; J.K. Anderson 1970; J Cassin-Scott 1977;D. Head 1982)

AFIK, Paul B. was the first to suggest Alum-tawed leather as the material for the spolas/Tube-and-Yoke corselet. D