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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
This could be termed slightly off topic so I hope that no one will take offence!

Do we have any information regarding the tribal travelling habits of the Iceni?

Does anyone know if they were nomadic in any way?

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Chris Kinsella and I have been researching the possibility of the lost battlesite locating at Clifton on Dunsmore which straddles Watling Street just north of Rugby. It is an armchair exercise mostly, but research on local historians, flooding patterns, skeletal remains in Georgian times, traces of military topography and the existence of a large memorial/cremation area near Lilbourne etc, has led us to believe that our pitch fits in well with many criteria established by ancient military manuals.
We published, with Clifton Local History Group, a treatise that won the Dugdale Socity Award for local history, but poverty,time and a demand for a return to some sanity have prevented us from expanding the original to full publication. Further details will be availble when we build our website, although as avowed crumblies we haven't the expertise to do that, however we are seeping into some quarters as a strong contender.Contact for further info at [email protected]
Kerry Sullivan
Laurence K D Sullivan
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Nice to be back on Watling Street, that area is now a very dense cluster, we must have an advocate for every valley in the area.

Did you notice this epic thread is now up to 16.5k views...... it just won't lie down.
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This seems to suffer from the same problem as Mancetter, being too far up Watling Street. The basic question is why the two armies should be there.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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That would be the same problem as Mancetter, High Cross, Church Stowe, Tripontium, Paulerspury and to an extent Dunstable.

We know this was the most likely route for the Romans down from Anglesey, so at least one army passed that way
We know it is about as far south as you can go without risking out flanking from the Iceni teritory from the east,
We know it is accessible as a mustering point from north, south, east and west
We know it defends the crucial cross roads at High Cross

I think these are some of the reasons why so many candidate sites are clustered in this area,
it makes sense on the basis of the available information.

The only outstanding point is Paulinus' trip to London and that is open open to an awful lot of interpretation and speculation.

AND.....this is Paulinus himself nominating a site, how much more authoroty could he have ;-)
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Quote:That would be the same problem as Mancetter, High Cross, Church Stowe, Tripontium, Paulerspury and to an extent Dunstable.
Precisely. In my view, the only plausible site on Watling Street is Dunstable. That is the junction with the Icknield Way which would take the Iceni back to their homelands and you would have to explain why they would wish to go any further north. Even so, from a Roman point of view, that is also unlikely when there were safer rallying points further west on the Fosse Way.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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I was wondering how long it would be... Smile


Quote:In my view, the only plausible site on Watling Street is Dunstable.

I'd have to agree, of course. Dunstable is only nine miles from St Albans, and we know that Boudica & co were there. Paulinus was at least considering fighting his battle in London, so clearly he had no problem with a southerly position. High Cross is only 'crucial' if you extend the strategic map in that direction, which in turn creates problems with getting the Britons there... If we restrict ourselves to known locations, the Midlands is too far away. Clifton upon Dunsmore is 80 miles, more or less, from London.

A lot of our arguments here are going to be the same as for other sites, but it's interesting all the same, and any new theories are at the very least great ways of testing the older ones. I'd like to know more about the thinking behind Clifton (it looks like it's up on a hillcrest?) - perhaps Kerry could give us a rather more detailed summary?
Nathan Ross
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Quote:I was wondering how long it would be... Smile


Renatus post=330558 Wrote:In my view, the only plausible site on Watling Street is Dunstable.
Do not be deceived! The significant words are "on Watling Street". I still favour a western site but, as I may have mentioned before, if one has to go up Watling Street, Dunstable seems to be the best option.


Quote:Dunstable is only nine miles from St Albans, and we know that Boudica & co were there.
We don't actually know that. All Tacitus says is that Verulamium suffered the same disaster as London. He does not say who was responsible. It may have been the main rebel band, it could have been local insurgents or it may have been another tribe coming down Watling Street to join the rebellion. It may be signicant that Dio mentions only two cities being sacked (Dio, 62.1.1), while he has Paulinus telling his troops before the final battle that the rebels had burned only two cities, neither of which they had taken by force, one having been betrayed and the other abandoned (Dio, 62.9.2). Evidently, these are Colchester and London. Dio may not have known about Verulamium or have thought it too insignificant to mention but would it be stretching the evidence too far to suggest that he only mentioned the two cities because they were the only ones taken by the main rebel band?
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Quote:We don't actually know that.

Ah, very true! Yes, I should have been more cautious - we know (if we can trust Tacitus) that some aspect of the rebellion reached St Albans. As we've said before, it could have been attacked by a separate group, or even the local population. But I tend to think that its proximity to London and Colchester implies that whatever happened there was at least inspired, if not actively directed, by the main Boudican revolt. The known area of rebellion (which Paulinus' counter-insurgency operation would have to address) therefore includes St Albans. Anywhere on the periphery of that area would seem to me more plausible than a site far removed from it, in any direction.

As for 'Watling Street' - yes, I'm still quite partial to western sites myself, with qualifications!


Quote:would it be stretching the evidence too far to suggest that he only mentioned the two cities because they were the only ones taken by the main rebel band?

The 'betrayed and abandoned' point is interesting - in what way was Colchester (assuming that's what Dio means here) 'betrayed'?

The probable reason for Dio's 'two cities' is that he did not consider the tribal centre of Verulamium to be a city - only the Roman citizen settlements of Colchester and London. Alternatively, it's just possible that he didn't consider London to be a city! As Tacitus says, it was not a colony but a busy mercentile and trading centre (cognomento quidem coloniae non insigne, sed copia negotiatorum et commeatuum maxime celebre). Perhaps the municipium of St Albans (Tacitus' municipio Verulamio) and the colonia of Colchester are the 'two cities'?

Or, as you say, the place was attacked by some other band and either Dio or Paulinus himself felt it unnecessary to mention it.

There's maybe another possibility as well. St Albans has no evidence of large-scale burning to match Colchester or London, just some minor destruction that could be dated to the approximate period. So why would Tacitus mention the place and Dio not? It could be that the town was important as it lay close to the site of the final battle - Dio perhaps did not know the location of the site, or thought it irrelevant, and so disregarded the otherwise unimportant sacking of the nearby town.
Nathan Ross
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Confusedmile:

I was almost beginning to miss this thread...almost!
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Quote:The 'betrayed and abandoned' point is interesting - in what way was Colchester (assuming that's what Dio means here) 'betrayed'?
I am assuming that this refers to what I have called a 'fifth column' in the city which, according to Tacitus, somehow prevented the inhabitants from erecting defences or evacuating the women and old men, perhaps by persuading them that it was unnecessary.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
Well I'm looking forward to seeing the Clifton on Dunsmore theory.
I'm guessing it's the site we talked about in August 2012 on page 15.
The Mottes hint at a significant route, and it the Iceni were using the A14 it's a pretty good one.
Can you give us any insights, plans etc Kerry?
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Renatus wrote:

I am assuming that this refers to what I have called a 'fifth column' in the city which, according to Tacitus, somehow prevented the inhabitants from erecting defences or evacuating the women and old men, perhaps by persuading them that it was unnecessary.

I think that your interpretation is right. What is quite surprising is that it seems that soldiers were sent from London yet no preparations for a defence or an evacuation were made which you would have thought would have been advisable especially as there were veterans in Colchester who would have understood warfare.

So if the inhabitants were lulled into a false sense of security it would have had to have been by those who they trusted at a high level. Could this have been the priests of Claudius; the local aristocracy who would have been part of priesthood?

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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Quote:I'm guessing it's the site we talked about in August 2012 on page 15.

So we did! And I think Kerry originally posted about this site (as you spotted yourself) over ten years ago:

Boudica's Last Battle
Nathan Ross
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Renatus wrote:

Do not be deceived! The significant words are "on Watling Street". I still favour a western site but, as I may have mentioned before, if one has to go up Watling Street, Dunstable seems to be the best option.

I too have always thought that a Western route was the most logical and taking into account the typical valley scenario described by Tacitus the Kennet Valley and its tributaries offer a number of sites.

The only problem is the distance from London and the length of time that it would of have taken the “horde” to have reached Silchester let alone Cunetio.

The other point is that if he had wanted to SP could have easily withdrawn safely and linked up with his other legions (Twentieth and the Second) in the West and then regrouped.
That he did not even try to do this speaks volumes.

Here is another option that we haven’t considered (at least as far as I can tell) that takes part of the description of SP’s army that gets to London as being a “small army”.

If we assume that after Anglesey the Fourteenth plus the Batavian auxiliaries marched down Watling Street with SP (of course a vexillation of the Twentieth could have been attached but we have no proof of that).

By the time SP got to St Albans he must have suspected that the Ninth were not around, known that Colchester had been destroyed and that the Eastern Brythons were on the rampage.

If SP was expecting to mount a 3 pronged pincer movement from Longhtorpe (Ninth), Braughing (Fourteenth) and London (Second) to bring the Brythons to battle, he now had to change his plans as the Northern part of the pincer had gone.

The Second still hadn’t arrived in London but even at this juncture perhaps SP was still expecting them. He needed troops for the Northern pincer but needed re-inforcements.

The only other Legion available was the Twentieth who were guarding the Western borders but 2 thousand troops would make up the lost Ninth. Perhaps these were sent for to meet SP at St Albans.

If he was to go to London it would have been prudent to leave a force at St Albans to protect his back from Brythons coming down the Icknield Way and then Watling Street and to prevent him being outflanked by Brythons from Colchester where there was a direct route to St Albans.

It would have suited SP to take the Batavians (or at least part of them) to London for scouting purposes, to see the lie of the land and perhaps to ascertain exactly where the Brythons were and how were the forces massed against him and their composition.

We know that SP went to London perhaps to see his Procurator, meet the Second and scout the Brythonic progress and to finalise the battle plans.

Perhaps he left the bulk of his army at St Albans to guard the municipium and the Roman citizens as well as the protecting his rear. Also there was food there for the army.

When SP arrived in London and was confronted with a town which no longer had its Procurator, many of its richest citizens who would have fled or the Second Legion without which the town itself was not defendable.

It had to be abandoned but SP decided to take any refugees (possibly Roman citizens as well) who could or wished to travel with him, the food and weapons that could be carried and burned the Warehouses at Southwark that had any remaining food or ordanance not required by the defenders.

There was no time to take anything else and those who wished to defend their homes or could not travel were left behind.

SP needed to link up with his main army, travelling Northwest along Watling Street with the refugees at about 10 miles a day and could have spent the night at Brockley Hill after which they would have arrived in St Albans in 2 days.

Verulamium was not the best place to defend so SP would have to go to a place that could be defended by a small force against a much larger force and accommodate both refugees and an army.

What he does appear to have done is to have chosen a battle site to invite an attack.

Even at this stage and with the refugees he could have escaped.

In order to have done this he had to ensure that the Brythons followed and attacked him.

Although the Brython's leaders would have wanted to have destroyed the Roman Army with their numerically far superior forces they would have also realised that the Roman army could easily outpace them.

So how could SP allay their fears? How could he travel at a speed that didn’t take him out of reach of the slower Brythons – yet allow him and his army to escape if necessary.

He could burden himself with refugees from London, which had the dual effect of slowing his army down but also of giving the impression that Rome was retreating – the Procurator had already fled and now the Roman army and civilians were retreating.

He still had the option of leaving the refugees and withdrawing quickly to the west if necessary.

From a distance point of view Dunstable is certainly a possibility but I believe that it has two distinct flaws.

Although it is set in a valley setting it clearly does not fit the description of the sides being like a “rampart” and if the army was placed at this point with Dunstable behind it the Icknield Way is behind the Roman army and consequently Brythonic forces from Thetford etc. could have attacked from the rear and the position can be outflanked.

Perhaps this may be regarded as a small risk but from what we are led to believe SP was a thorough and careful General.

We also know that SP was a mountain specialist (as were a number of later Governors of Britain) and would therefore possibly look for a mountainous terrain to defend from.

The refugees would have wanted to go away from the conflict area and that way was the West.

Did SP abandoned St Albans and took the remaining citizens destroyed the granaries and left. From St Albans Akeman Street led West to Bicester and then on to Cirencester and Gloucester where the Twentieth were based?

Did the veterans of the Twentieth combined with cavalry units based at Cirencester and the local auxiliaries from St Albans and Bicester join SP?

Fifteen miles away from St Albans, Akeman Street crosses the Icknield Way at Tring, one of the main ancient roadways and a direct route into or from the Iceni territory.

At this juncture there is a remarkable natural feature at Wendover and Parvis Woods with at least three natural valleys with almost ravine like sides and heights up to 870 feet.

The present day water courses are man made but the area has natural springs which could be easily controlled by whichever arrived first.

So why should I now recommend this site?

It fits the descriptions of Tacitus, it is on a Roman Road to the West where the re-inforcements from Cirencester could process, it threatens the main artery across Britain for the Brythons and has an adequate and controllable water supply (but no river).

The valleys open up to a plain and if the wagons of the Brythons were parked along the access routes they would have had the effect of cutting off the retreat of the Brythons.

It also fits the reasoning behind the Dunstable and Church Stowe sites whether the Iceni came directly from their homelands or from London.

One site that fits all the requirements - surely it is worth investigating?

Kind Regards - Deryk
Deryk
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