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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote:[quote="Ron Andrea":1gjefttt]I think he was hoping for the best, but planned for the worst.

A characteristic of Paulinus throughout his career. We might(?) stand to gain something in locating the site of Boudica's stand by surveying Paulinus' movements in the Po Valley, which are better documented.
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Paulinus' movements in the Po Valley, which are better documented. - Bradley

can you give us an overview of these or some references please?
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Quote:can you give us an overview of these or some references please?

Sure. I'm in the middle of writing a paper on the Praetorian Guard of 69, so Paulinus comes up from time to time in my research. Looking at my saved JSTOR stuff, Gwyn Morgan is all over this with Recriminations after Ad Castores: Tacitus, Histories 2.30, as well as The Opening Stages in the Battle for Cremona, or the Devil in the Details (Tacitus, "Histories" 3, 15-18), and Martius Macer's Raid and Its Consequences: Tacitus, Histories 2.23. Wellesley also has A Major Crux in Tacitus: Histories II, 40. Chapter 6 of Morgan's book deals with Ad Castores. I don't have Wellesley in my bag, at the moment, but I'm sure he covers it, as well.

Tacitus begins at Histories 2.23, I think, and has Paulinus speak in Histories 2.32. Plutarch is brief in Otho, I think around 6 or so.

So both battles were ambushes on ground that he selected. But maybe the similarities end there?
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Quote:A characteristic of Paulinus throughout his career.

I've long considered, and several times mentioned here, that Tacitus's account of the reputation and character of Suetonius Paulinus during the civil war of AD69 provides vital evidence for any assessment of his strategy during the British campaign of AD61. Tacitus tells us that Paulinus... by his distinguished service had won fame and reputation in his British campaigns (Histories, 2,37), and that in 69 he was still regarded as the most skilful general of the time (ibid, 2,32).

I won't expand too much here what I've already said - a few quotes will suffice:

(Histories, 2,25): Suetonius Paulinus ... was naturally inclined to delay, and a man who preferred cautious and well-reasoned plans to chance success. So he kept issuing orders to fill up the ditches, clear the fields, and extend the line, thinking that it was soon enough to begin to conquer when they had made provision against defeat...

Following the battle, Paulinus maintained (ibid 2,32) that the enemy's advantage lay in haste, their own in delay... Many wars, formidable in their first onset, have shrunk to nothing through the tedium caused by inaction...Your policy therefore is to prolong the war.

So we have a portrait of a very cautious, slow-moving strategist and tactician, inclined to delay whenever possible. I think this suggests a Fabian policy of slow and careful maneuvering, staying close to the enemy and waiting to trap them when they are disadvantaged.

It does not suggest rapid movement up or down Watling Street, or long-distance retreats into the Midlands or the west country. I still believe, therefore, that the final battle was fought somewhere close to the last-known British position in London or St Albans, on defensible high ground.

However, I've made all these points before, so perhaps I'd better leave it there! ;-)
Nathan Ross
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"So he kept issuing orders to fill up the ditches, clear the fields, and extend the line,"

"Your policy therefore is to prolong the war."

Thanks for these Nathan, sorry I don't recall the points from earlier, probably happened when the CS towel was in, please feel free to repeat yourself or link to the pertinent page I can no longer recall all the content on here.

I am naturally reading these in the context of CS and seeing a physically "prepared" ground, ditches created as well as filled, forest cleared to define the enemies position, this would suit CS well.

The policy of prolonging the campaign might also hint at P selecting a site at a good distance from the enemy, either the Iceni base or their known position this might put us at the outer reaches of the anticipated territory, again CS fits this bill.

"Platform No. 9, Like the London Buses which, having waited for hours, all come along together?"

Interesting, I have it on good authority something remarkable was found near Platform 9 at Kings Cross a few years back, slightly closer to platform 10 though, around about 9 3/4.
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Hi
Fascinating ideas on the last battle site! We've put an argument forward based on I M P and much other documentary evidence that the battle site is at Clifton-on-Dunsmore on Watling Street. I attach a full synopsis of the site and some of the illustrations that we use to support our case. All comments welcome!
Cheers!


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Laurence K D Sullivan
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I'm only seeing fig 7 on the attachments, but with a name like that I'm pretty sure you know something the rest of us don't.
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Thank you John! You're quite right! I picked up a tile at Clifton while field walking which said
" Boudica was 'Ere!" Will clear the key illustrations and forward asap
Laurence K D Sullivan
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Ave,

Might as well put my thoughts in as a retired military guy.

First, Paulinus correctly determined that Londinium was essentially indefensible. That was a tough decision.

Second, the 9th Legion under Cerialis was ambushed and defeated. Paulinus was depending upon that support. Also Catus fled Britain and the other legion which Paulinus expected for support disobeyed orders and never came.

Third, Paulinus marched up Watling Street because Boudica's forces blocked any other feasible direction. Otherwise Paulinus' legion would have had to go across country, not a viable option.

Fourth, the problem for Paulinus was selecting a battlefield which would significantly reduce the impact of Boudica's vastly superior numbers, and optimize the tactics of Roman forces. That battle has been discussed ad nauseum. Suffice it to say that Paulinus' selection of a battlefield and his battle plan were classic, superior generalship.

Wouldst that other Roman legates had been nearly so good. A problem when they were political appointees.

Vale,

Petrus Augustinus
(Pete Kleff)
Petrus Augustinus
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As the discussion does not appear to have opened up this year (and I know some will say that all has been said which can be said), Here is another angle.
Regarding the disappearance of Malasian Flight MH137 .
I am no statistician, but I am aware that certain statistical analyses (which I cannot recall) were used to try (unsuccessfully!) to pinpoint the location of the crash, For example taking Steve Kayes lists of possible sites as an example, it seems that Ogbourne St George comes out top. Taking all of the theories around the North and West routes, can a list be devised which gives the best likelyhood of success in finding the true location?
Could this be sufficiently reliable to warrant a field trip, possible to the top 10 locations?
Davidus
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Quote:can a list be devised which gives the best likelyhood of success in finding the true location?

The problem with all those statistical analyses is that Paulinus himself would not have had access to anything like this sort of technology in chosing his battle site - as far as we can tell, all he could rely on was the evidence of his own eyes and his knowledge of the ground on certain specific routes.

It also places too much emphasis on Tacitus's topographical description, which may actually have been a fictional composite of various arenas for ideal generalship, as suggested by Livy, for example.

Unless our ideas about the battle site (or its general area) are informed by a consideration of the campaign as a whole, and Paulinus's likely strategic movements, I think we're just throwing pins at a map!

(and yes, I do think most has already been said on this topic - although I'm always open to new suggestions! :-) )
Nathan Ross
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http://www.thecolchesterarchaeologist.co.uk/?p=13411
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Ha - beaten me to it Smile
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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"This was the so-called Boudiccan Revolt when, in AD 61..."

Bah! When will they learn...?

(EDIT - when will I learn to check before posting? The year AD61 is actually correct... bah indeed!)
Nathan Ross
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That's one way to breathe life into the dying thread, Nathan! Wink
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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