Thread Rating:
  • 4 Vote(s) - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Quote:particularly useless if most of you were never in London or St Albans.

Bah, heresy! But if you're starting to imagine this sort of thing then it does indeed throw everything wide open.

However - Paulinus believed he could not defend London with ten thousand men. That implies to me that he at least believed he was facing a massive enemy army, not just a few freebooters from Colchester!



Quote:but what about 4-5 days to Mancetter? where is the break point? maybe the Nene or the Ouse from where they could float back home?

I make it 68 miles from Dunstable to Mancetter - at least a week's steady haul for the Britons, if they kept up their pace. More likely twice that (see 'carnival' below!). Dunstable/Manshead is only 9 miles from St Albans and 30 from London.



Quote:a bit of a carnival. carnival = parade? come on lets agree if it existed it was a parade...

Nope, no parades, please! The word suggests serried ranks marching in step, day after day, which would be absurd (which is why you keep using it, of course!)

Carnival, on the other hand... sounds more like it. A day on the road, then a day of looting, drinking and feasting, a bit of bardic inspiration, a bit of human sacrificing perhaps, another day of arguing about war aims and leadership, then another day on the road (maybe in a different direction...) And so on.



Quote:returned home via their units told their dads, uncles, brothers, cousins, aunties etc of the walk over in Colchester and the fun the lads were probably having torching London and St Abans with no resistance

So why did they want to return home again, with all this 'fun' available? Once you've raised a massive intertribal host, armed it illegally and inspired it to attack the Romans, why let it all drift away? And how much harder would it be to raise a bigger host a second time when there's no easy looting in store, just a hard fight with some well-prepared legionaries?



Quote:the rv close to where the roman force had been scouted.

And how did they know where the Romans would be? Paulinus could move quickly. The Britons couldn't. Unless you imagine Paulinus sitting around for weeks waiting for the Britons to find him...



Quote:not if their heads were on sticks at Bartlow and their buddies were in full flight to Longthorpe

I was thinking of Paulinus's cavalry. But, as above - if it was any less than a full army of Britons bearing down on London, Paulinus would have been unlikely to withdraw.



Quote:on site it looked hard/impossible to guarantee the opponents couldn't take the ridge by simply moving east or west

That's why the Romans send the cavalry onto the ridges to either side of the defile!



Quote:neither could effectively be "closed off at the rear by woods.

Are you sure? The slopes down from the ridge on the north-western flank are steep and heavily wooded even today. Anyone getting up onto the ridge would have a hard job getting down again in that direction. Plus, as I've said, the area of Dunstable itself was probably woodland at the time.
Nathan Ross
Reply
Quote:So did the Roman settlement of D?????M shift North at some point?'

Durocobrivis, and south. Barry Horne's theory (and it's quite a good one, I think) is that the original Durocobrivis was a couple of miles north-west at Tilsworth. The name refers to a bridge, which requires a river, and there aren't any at the modern Dunstable. In time, presumably, the name migrated to a settlement at the junction of Watling Street and the Ikneild (I suspect a lot of settlements close to the road ended up 'on' it in this way!)


Quote:Where else? Where is Tring in the current assessments?'

Still looking fairly good, I'd say.



Quote:Please send a copy of the latest theory to me at '[email protected]'

Will do! Although, as John says, it mainly goes over things we've covered here before.
Nathan Ross
Reply
But if you're starting to imagine this sort of thing then it does indeed throw everything wide open.
throw things wide open? what like take Webster flavoured blinkers off and start looking at what is most likely to have happened both strategically and tactically? If you start to imagine this sort of thing you do end up with sites far closer to the Iceni territory and you snuff out the more distant western and south eastern imaginings pretty swiftly.

However - Paulinus believed he could not defend London with ten thousand men.
Or more likely he thought he couldn't defend it with the flying column of cavalry he had to hand (now that is heresy) instead he decided to return to his ten thousand men digging in up country.

not just a few freebooters from Colchester!
steady I gave a low estimate at 25% that could still be several thousand of your so called free booters, but did they even have boots back then?

I make it 68 miles from Dunstable to Mancetter - at least a week's steady haul for the Britons
OK, if not Mancetter, and that is a wise call, where? Could Milton Keynes be in range? Could Towcester? Could Bannaventa? Could Watfordius Gapius?


Carnival, on the other hand... sounds more like it.
So more Notting Hill than trooping the colour, but still a parade...... :woot:

So why did they want to return home again, with all this 'fun' available?
'Cos the cart was full of goodies and the enemy was up north not down south. Some of the family was reticent to back the firebrands who did Colchester. The firebrands returned with hope to drop off the goodies and get the previously uncommited to join in. Doesn't take a big leap really, it gets rid of a lot of foraging problems, smaller units, known food stores and fertile recruiting grounds, and all on route to intercept the troops returning from Mona. It was going home, it was stoppping off on the way to an intercept, if they managed to locate and bump the ninth, then locating and facing down the bigger force would have been easy work.

why let it all drift away?
You're not you're sending it, with evidence, to go recruit for the big show down on hte way to the intercept in the west.

And how did they know where the Romans would be?
Scouts and the big column was hard to miss.

Unless you imagine Paulinus sitting around for weeks waiting for the Britons to find him
why not? dig in and expand a garrison/depot in the middle of the country. Maybe on top of a "Y" shaped ridge and invite the locals to "come an' 'ave a go if you think you're hard enough".. A couple of weeks would be good to get all parties in place in the numbers required and a good set of ridge top field fortification excavated. I can't imagine it was much less given your 0-10 miles a day scenario.

I was thinking of Paulinus's cavalry
they were too busy acting as a flying column to recce London (see I have no fear of your wrath)

Paulinus would have been unlikely to withdraw
Of course he would, most of his lads are back up Watling Street digging in on a "Y" shaped ridge.

"That's why the Romans send the cavalry onto the ridges to either side of the defile!"
So you'd detach and disperse one of your key assets that far? Possible but not massively secure against a big proportion of the Iceni and too steep a hill to race your cavalry back down to lend support to your beleagued valley bottom PBI.

the area of Dunstable itself was probably woodland at the time.
With a monging great road running through it.......with fields and farms on the low ground.....and maybe a town...and a river.....

(and it's quite a good one, I think)
well you would wouldn't you, after all it's been your theory for several years here on Roman Military Matter.com Yes it's a good site, but not that good.

Must stop replying to your taunts after closing time..... ;-)
Reply
Quote:the flying column of cavalry he had to hand (now that is heresy)

No, that's strict Websterian orthodoxy.

Unfortunately, as I've said ad nauseum, it doesn't stand up to the evidence we have of Paulinus's cautious generalship from Tacitus Histories. Please forget all ideas of flying cavalry!

Of course, since Paulinus marched his men all the way down to London, he clearly anticipated that the major threat would be around there, and not roistering about East Anglia somewhere.

As for troops 'digging in', I think we've been over this ground before... :whistle:



Quote:too steep a hill to race your cavalry back down to lend support to your beleagued valley bottom PBI.

We have the judgement of resident cavalry expert Moi (a long long time ago!) that the slopes around the Dunstable site are by no means too steep for horses. The cavalry attack the British flanks; they are not required to support the infantry, who are charging out from the defile onto the plain in any case...



Quote:after all it's been your theory for several years here on Roman Military Matter.com

Hmm, I think somebody else here on RMM also has a theory, and has held it for longer than mine... ;-)
Nathan Ross
Reply
it doesn't stand up to the evidence we have of Paulinus's cautious generalship
hear say, more over prioritisation of text and its interpretation. It's a maybe but the dash or field reports can't be ruled out because we think we have a certainty about individuals characters or the accuracy of ancient authors.

roistering ?
is this a typo for re-grouping?

We have the judgement of resident cavalry expert Moi
OK point taken, Moi rules, doesn't make it Dunstable though.

Hmm, I think somebody else here on RMM also has a theory
But your version is the most fully articulated.
Reply
Quote:prioritisation of text and its interpretation.

Since there is no independent archaeological evidence for either Boudica or her revolt, 'text and its interpretation' is all we have.

If you're discounting Tacitus now then really there's nothing left but the imagination...
Nathan Ross
Reply
Quote:We have the judgement of resident cavalry expert Moi (a long long time ago!) that the slopes around the Dunstable site are by no means too steep for horses. The cavalry attack the British flanks; they are not required to support the infantry, who are charging out from the defile onto the plain in any case...

As flattered as I am by this reference (and yes, I'm posting in the thread again!!) I am not an expert (ex= has been ... spert/spurt = a drip under pressure Smile ) b ut merely someone who tries to balance what a horse can/can't do against some of the wilder fantasies of both archaeologists and re-enactors.

But the hills aren't too steep, erosion not withstanding :evil:
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
I see you have replied to your favourite post Moi. I hope you continue to do so and add valuable info to this thread.
Kevin.
Kevin
Reply
"But the hills aren't too steep, erosion not withstanding"

Moi, would you give us the maximum incline that a cavalry unit could reasonably be expected to operate on, please?
Reply
I can, however, a few questions first:

a) What do you mean by operate? eg Flanking manoeuvre in line or file? Attack? Feint?

b) Expected phase of the battle? Swooping down to roll up a flank or the psychological effect of a line of horsemen galloping towards you? Or even the effect of a line of horsemen facing you?

I only ask because of this...
[attachment=11125]553461_339316886153246_1695555995_n_2014-11-06.jpg[/attachment]


Attached Files Thumbnail(s)
   
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
is that you at the top Major Important?

in the context of Dunstable could cavalry have both blocked the advance of a large body of infantry along the high ground (in line, file, attack or feint - or which ever formation might be appropriate) and been in a positon to redeploy downslope at speed to provide a more mobile defensive cover to the foot soldiers in the valley?

Another thought might be what would be the maximum slope angle a British chariot could effectively charge up. I'm guessing they wouldn't be descending quite so elegantly as your photo indicates.
Reply
PS....John1, its Major...that's important, though it sounds a minor thing.. I don't know horse that well, but I would never believed they could do that in the pic. They can, and in combat I would presume, much more.
Kevin
Kevin
Reply
Phew !! thanks for that Kevin, amended before she saw it I hope...... There must be a point, incline, where they wouldn't be deployed though I'm just seeing if we can establish what that is, there will be exceptions but it may help me look at steepness in a more useful way,
Reply
John

The cavalry could block a large body of men but their role is more usually offensive in nature not defensive. They would possibly be better at channeling the advancing enemy into the chosen killing ground and then redeploy to support the PBI in the valley, but again, cavalry are inherently offensive so I imagine that by this you mean perhaps counter attack whoever was attacking the PBI.

Sadly for you, "she" (choose - wisely! - between a) who must be obeyed or b) the cat's mother, depending on one's point of view) may not have seen what you wrote but I'm not sure what Major Important is meant to convey. Most people refer to me as Major Disaster... or Ma'am Wink

And never forget it is defilade from an enfilade position and never the other way around.
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
Reply
Ma'am, (avoiding earlier rank confusion, and now concerned you are following the post),
"their role is more usually offensive in nature not defensive".
that's what I understood but Nathan seems to imply (please correct me if I am wrong Nathan) that the cavalry were placed on the wings/ridge tops to defend those locations as opposed to being up there in order to sweep down upon the enemy. So his cavalry would have to be operating rather differently to the norm I guess or simply aggressively patrolling.

With the "aid of a defile" was how I remembered that one.
Reply


Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Armchair Wall walking mcbishop 3 3,482 01-11-2012, 03:22 AM
Last Post: Vindex

Forum Jump: