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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.
Britannia vol. X 1979... KK Carroll confirms the date of the revolt as 61AD. He doesn't support Mancetter, which is good, but he does support High Cross, which, having just been there and failed to find a defile or any steep topography, is bad.......

465233
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(08-05-2019, 01:05 PM)John1 Wrote: KK Carroll confirms the date of the revolt as 61AD.

He does indeed - as I mentioned all the way back in 2012... [Image: wink.png]


(08-05-2019, 01:05 PM)John1 Wrote: High Cross, which...  is bad

It sure is. I've never understood the reasoning behind that location - why would anyone be fighting a battle all the way up there anyway?


(08-05-2019, 01:05 PM)John1 Wrote: 465233

Is that the number of views for the thread? It's probably just automated bot traffic, unfortunately... They're attracted to big threads on public forums for data-harvesting purposes. Sadly I doubt many of them are interested in Roman history...
Nathan Ross
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Yep I remembered the conclusion but not the reference, I was only a child in 2012. Handily getting the actual journal had the bonus effect of introducing me to Manning and Scott's piece on Roman Timber Military Gateways which shows the gate at the new Windridge fort to be a V2 Nijmegen type Augustan but that might be close enough to make Windridge 1st century so a potential burning site for 61AD.

High Cross - good strategic location due to the Fosse Way junction, but bad fit for the topography. I'm in the "Not North of Watford Gap" gang, the "Not with their back to Ermine St" gang and the "Paradistas Suck" gang.

Yep number of views, and might well be bots but there is no reason not to keep the data, it seems to go up in spurts. Nice to see if the new Kate Nash film bumps traffic numbers.
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(08-05-2019, 01:39 PM)John1 Wrote: High Cross - good strategic location due to the Fosse Way junction... the new Kate Nash film

I persist in thinking that directing reinforcements 60 miles north by northeast from Cirencester to oppose an enemy at that point c.120 miles east of Circencester makes no strategic sense - but let's not get back into that again!

What's the new film? I've never heard of this person. Is this the 'Horrible Histories' thing?
Nathan Ross
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A short, and totally biased, synopsis of the various candidates sites is up on YouTube under the title Stalking Boudicca;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q-jGLIi...7Gr1dDw3Df
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfFy9Cc6...7Gr1dDw3Df
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a33Wjlo1...Dw3Df&t=5s
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(08-09-2019, 05:44 PM)John1 Wrote: Stalking Boudicca

Really nice - well done! Audio is very quiet though...

Your last three candidates look very strong indeed, particularly with the landscape panoramas. And I'm impressed that you managed to track down that Lewis Spence map!

Criticism seems churlish, but I still believe that Tacitus's valley was 'closed at the rear by a wood', i.e was not closed by topography but rather was an open pass through high ground with woodland on the far side. Also there were rather more bits of military equipment found in the vicinity of the Tring site than you mention here. But these are minor points.
Nathan Ross
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Hello John,

Well done and thanks.

Please keep us informed of news regarding the sculptured figures with possible segmentata and well done for rediscovering them/it in St. Michael's church.

Regards, Steve Kaye
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May I offer my thanks too for a most useful study? It is particularly valuable in stressing that many of the sites suggested lack the defile that was so crucial to Paulinus' battle plan, preventing the rebels from outflanking him and forcing them to engage him on the same frontage as that dictated by his limited forces.

I agree with Nathan that Tacitus' description of the battle site is of a valley closed by woodland, not high ground, but I agree with you that it could not be across a through route, as the woods that protected Paulinus' rear would have prevented through traffic. Unlike you, I have still not managed to get to Tring but, when I do, I will be looking for a side valley off or near Akeman Street which may be open now but which could have been closed by woodland in Roman times. As I have said before, I regard Tring as an area, not a specific location, and there appear to be a number of possibilities in the vicinity.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
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(08-11-2019, 05:12 PM)Renatus Wrote: it could not be across a through route, as the woods that protected Paulinus' rear would have prevented through traffic.

Hmm, could be.

Strictly speaking the Tring site I suggested does not have to be a through route; Akeman street turns westwards at the head of the valley, and the 'suggested Roman line 2' lies beyond it, with the woods at the rear (I believe these woods were identified in the paper about the Cow Roast excavations as being 'in the vicinity of Tring Station', but were cut down for charcoal burning in later centuries).


(08-11-2019, 05:12 PM)Renatus Wrote: I will be looking for a side valley off or near Akeman Street which may be open now but which could have been closed by woodland in Roman times.

You might try having a look at the valley north of Aldbury. One of the criticisms of that site was that it might be attacked from the rear, but the wooded north-western slopes of the Chilterns might 'close' it effectively. Paulinus's tactical desire to ensure there was no enemy behind him - the note comes directly after the bit about the 'enclosing' wood - might suggest that without the wood this could be a danger.
Nathan Ross
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Thanks for the kind comments (quite out of character for the thread) and not mentioning the 400 000 Roman casualties or the Valley less site at Manchester.......

Notes on woods.

I think this is a very specific descriptive component that is significantly overlooked by many. For the "woods" to be sufficiently impenetrable for light infantry there are very few types of native British woodland that this could be.

I am inclined to think the best candidate is Willow Carr a wet, low clay woodland type. This is a viable woodland type in the period for the entire perimeter at CS in the Nene tributary valleys which surround the ridge. So a credible mature woodland type and a credible geology for it. This would make the "rear" of Paulinus all the ridge bottom perimeter of the site about 270 degrees rather than just the valley exit point which seems to be the case you are making for T and D.

Both Tring and Dunstable oblige the woods to be on high ground or a fertile river valley. Both sites are on chalk with small patches of  alluvium. The valley bottom alluvium would almost certainly be in cultivation and the ridge tops if wooded would be a very open woodland of Oak or Beech with plenty of space for infantry.

If you go to Nathan's site on Tom's Hill the NT estate will give you a clear sense of how open these woodlands are. The footpath which runs through the livery yard is good but in summer the views are very restricted so be prepared to go off piste, and remember they can only use reasonable force to eject you from the ground and it's only a Civil Offence not a Criminal one.

One other note (to get back to the threads true character) I think you might both be taking the "Armchair" bit rather too literally if you have been pimping sites you haven't even visited......... Wink

PS Lewis Spence map courtesy of advice from William Foot (John Aubin) nice guy and it's well worth giving his book a go, I enjoyed it. I think some of his speculations could be targeted at the site of the bump of the ninth; https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0993...bl_vppi_i0

PPS you with love this one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V276U8v10E

PPS but you'll love this even more, dance off anyone? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5DcfO8C...7K&index=5
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(08-11-2019, 07:35 PM)John1 Wrote: For the "woods" to be sufficiently impenetrable for light infantry... I am inclined to think the best candidate is Willow Carr...  for the entire perimeter at CS in the Nene tributary valleys which surround the ridge.

Yes, this is a good suggestion, and I know you've made it several times. We would have to wonder whether this 'wood' was intended to be an entirely impenetrable barrier, or just a way of controlling the tactical space by restricting easy approaches - as we've discussed before, Paulinus would be using the landscape wherever he happened to be, rather than ranging all over the map searching for the perfect location.
 
Also we could wonder whether Tacitus's a tergo silva clausum would describe willow scrub in valleys surrounding a ridge which in turn surrounded the 'defile' - it might, but it's a stretch.

But all of us are to some extent creatively interpreting the literary description to suit our favoured sites.


(08-11-2019, 07:35 PM)John1 Wrote: Both Tring and Dunstable... very open woodland of Oak or Beech with plenty of space for infantry.

Yes, mostly the famous Chiltern beechwood. It was apparently growing on the saddle where Tring railway station currently stands, though, so all the valley areas were not under arable cultivation.

Beech does indeed tend to be very open woodland, which isn't ideal, although there are tracts of hawthorn and blackthorn scrub around there that would have presented more of an obstacle. More generally, it would have made any outflanking descent of the escarpment from the Chiltern ridges to the plain to the north west that bit more tricky. Coppiced woodland untended for a while can become quite dense too - there are pockets of it close to New Ground even today, I think.
Nathan Ross
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i - it can never be truly impenetrable, so I would assume this was as close to impenetrable as it could be. the point was to have no meaningful route through and Beech/Oak woods are the opposite of this.

ii - ranging all over the map searching for the perfect location. that's more like it an entirely unreasonable and offensive statement on the thread, good to have you back. It was a known position, it was already recce'd next to the road and it's garrison alerted as it had been prepared in part as a central depot in the preceding years. No ranging required, no map required just "see you at the depot near Weedon, just south of the Watford Gap". You are assuming a tabular rasa of a campaign ground, the Romans had 17 years since the CS depot was set up and garrisoned when;

"the Roman 'line of advance' in the Claudian period appears to have stopped at the Nene for a few years (perhaps 1-2?) and then moved ever north and westward." _ a bloke at the pub.

iii - "Silva" would do it for me. Ever been trapped in that stuff..... it's a shocker.

iv - "all of us are to some extent creatively interpreting" - that's the strength of this method, CS gets a strong plus but the same issue applied to Tring gives that site a minus. Find some points that Tring outguns CS on, I haven't found any yet but then again I'm not looking.

v - Railway saddle, that's on clay. I assume the forest speculation is based on pollen but it would be hard to define the character and density of the wood in a particular year from that data.

vi - dense coppice is easy to move through.

vii - your facing the XIV with Pila and Scorpios, is hawthorn such a challenge from your armchair?

viii _ I think if you are occupying high ground on chalk your should apply a loose version of the Kaye test, is there a credible source of water? there is at CS with the ironstone spring line.

thanks for sharing your thoughts though, sharing's good; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcblRaWJPDM
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John1 Wrote:One other note (to get back to the threads true character) I think you might both be taking the "Armchair" bit rather too literally if you have been pimping sites you haven't even visited......... Wink

Ah, but remember that I am only 'pimping' a locality that makes strategic sense, not a specific site; that would require a visit.
Michael King Macdona

And do as adversaries do in law, -
Strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.
(The Taming of the Shrew: Act 1, Scene 2)
Reply
(08-11-2019, 09:21 PM)Renatus Wrote:
John1 Wrote:One other note (to get back to the threads true character) I think you might both be taking the "Armchair" bit rather too literally if you have been pimping sites you haven't even visited......... Wink

Ah, but remember that I am only 'pimping' a locality that makes strategic sense, not a specific site; that would require a visit.
 So how does that differ from supporting Nathan or Deryk? The visits make this game a far richer experience, enjoy it,
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(08-11-2019, 09:16 PM)John1 Wrote: an entirely unreasonable and offensive statement on the thread

You seem to have your offence bar set very low today! But I wasn't even referring specifically to your ideas - I just meant that Paulinus would have had to use the ground available wherever he happened to be - he was 'compelled, contrary to his judgment' to fight the battle (Dio), so he didn't have loads of time to select his perfect spot.


(08-11-2019, 09:16 PM)John1 Wrote: it's garrison alerted as it had been prepared in part as a central depot in the preceding years.

Both garrison and 'depot' are your own hypotheses though...


(08-11-2019, 09:16 PM)John1 Wrote: Find some points that Tring outguns CS on, I haven't found any yet but then again I'm not looking.

Isn't this what we have been discussing here for over nine years now?


(08-11-2019, 09:16 PM)John1 Wrote: is hawthorn such a challenge

I was thinking more of this sort of thing. Granted, I have not attempted to forge through it while outrunning groundsmen and gamekeepers...

   

(pic from Streetview, about 800 yards from New Ground)

(08-11-2019, 09:16 PM)John1 Wrote: your should apply a loose version of the Kaye test, is there a credible source of water? there is at CS with the ironstone spring line.

New Ground appeared very high on Steve Kaye's list of sites, as did Tring Station I think.

If we are including springs then the north-western escarpment of the Chilterns has dozens of them. There are at least three around Dunstable.
Nathan Ross
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